Coyote Con

Panel: W. D. Gagliani, Debbi Mack, C. J. West
8PM EST, May 9, 2011

[Deena] 8:01 pm: Hello everyone! We’re about to start “Writing the Series” Character with Debbi Mack, Bill Gagliani, and C. J. West.

[Deena] 8:02 pm: Bill, would you like to start by introducing yourself?

[WDGagliani] 8:03 pm: Thanks, Deena. Bill Gagliani here. I write horror thrillers. And book reviews and nonfiction of all kinds.

[Deena] 8:03 pm: Your website?

[WDGagliani] 8:03 pm: http://www.williamdgagliani.com and FB and MySpace

[Deena] 8:03 pm: Debbi, will you introduce yourself?

[DebbiM] 8:04 pm: Thanks, Deena. I’m Debbi Mack, author the hardboiled mystery “Identity Crisis”. I’ve written short stories, one of which was Derringer nominated. My Web site is http://www.debbimack.com.

[WDGagliani] 8:05 pm: Wow, nice to see so many people attending! Wave wave!

[Deena] 8:05 pm: Congrats on the nom, Debbi. CJ, could you introduce yourself?

[cj_west] 8:05 pm: Thanks for having me tonight Deena.

I write the Randy Black series of suspense novels and THE END OF MARKING TIME, a standalone coming June 10th, 2010. You can find me at http://www.22wb.com and at http://www.facebook.com/cjwestfans

My novel Sin & Vengeance, the first Randy Black novel, is in development to become a feature film. I also host a blog talk radio show and interview thriller and suspense novelists. Info is on my website http://www.22wb.com.

[Deena] 8:07 pm: I would think the hardest thing about writing a series character would be consistency through from book to book, and showing character growth and change across books at the same time. Would you guys mind talking about how right or wrong I am?

[Deena] 8:07 pm: CJ, would you like to start?

[cj_west] 8:08 pm: Organization is a challenge because if you contradict yourself, readers will tell you. Because character arc is projected over many novels, it is more difficult to have significant growth in book after book. To do this would risk readers feeling disconnected should they read books out of order.

I think it is important to decide how much or how little your character will grow over the length of the series. I keep a very detailed history of my characters and everything that happens to them.

[Deena] 8:09 pm: Debbi, what’s your take?

[DebbiM] 8:10 pm: I’m with CJ on keeping track of details about the characters. That’s the only way I can remember anything about them.

[Deena] 8:11 pm: Bill, how do you determine how much growth a character will experience over the life of a series?

[WDGagliani] 8:11 pm: Growth should be an author’s personal choice. An uncomplicated, noir-style pulp kind of hero might well be just fun and stay exactly the same way, so that readers who love him or her can get their fix the way your favorite diner serves that same sandwich you crave time after time. Nothing wrong with that!

[DebbiM] 8:11 pm: As far as character growth goes, I think it’s important for characters to grow and change, but any changes need to be organic and a natural extension of who that character is.

[cj_west] 8:12 pm: Excellent point Debbi.

Readers fall in love with your characters like they are real people and want them to behave accordingly.

[WDGagliani] 8:13 pm: A character who grows is likely to be a little more realistic, and it gives you the opportunity to surprise readers here and there, when characters grow in ways they didn’t expect. It’s really great when your character actually surprises you, the writer, by demanding to do
or just doing something you didn’t expect either.

[cj_west] 8:13 pm: I got myself into a bit of trouble with character growth.

[Deena] 8:14 pm: How, CJ?

[cj_west] 8:14 pm: My series wasn’t planned until the second book was finished. In book one, Randy Black is the villain. In book two he redeems himself and becomes an anti-hero. This turn of events in my series is a blessing and a curse. Readers are often struck by how their feelings toward
Randy change over progressive books, but the first two books must be read in order to have this affect.

I think it is certainly easier to plan minor changes to a hero over time or to keep him stagnant. I can’t count the number of times I’ve said, “read SIN & VENGEANCE and then read A DEMON AWAITS.”

[DebbiM] 8:15 pm: One thing that drives me nuts is when a character keeps making the same mistakes and learns nothing throughout a series. I’ve seen this happen (I won’t name names    ) and I’ve stopped reading those series as a result.

[WDGagliani] 8:15 pm: That’s definitely radical, CJ!

[cj_west] 8:15 pm: Thanks. Readers enjoy this, but it is effort to get them to enter the series in the right order.

[Deena] 8:16 pm: Debbi, what kinds of trouble have you had with your series characters?

[DebbiM] 8:16 pm: I’ve always heard you should write each book in a series so it could be read in any order. That’s tricky.

[Deena] 8:17 pm: I’d think those would have to be the stagnant characters Bill mentioned.

[cj_west] 8:17 pm: At book 3 I’ve leveled off to incremental changes so the future books can be read in any order.

[WDGagliani] 8:17 pm: I think that might be too tough. There has to be a connection looking back.

[cj_west] 8:17 pm: Lee Child is famous for saying Reacher will never change.

[DebbiM] 8:17 pm: I’m just starting my series, so I’m only beginning to deal with the issue of character problems.

[WDGagliani] 8:17 pm: But Reacher has changed in subtle ways, tho. Despite what Lee says! LOL

[DebbiM] 8:18 pm: Lee Child is the exception to everything!!!

[Deena] 8:18 pm: Bill, can your books be read in any order?

[WDGagliani] 8:18 pm: I started with a flawed hero and I’m slowly turning him into an anti-hero, more of a bad good guy. So far, response has been good.

Yes and no. Let me explain.

The first book, Wolf’s Trap, was intended as a standalone. I almost killed off Nick!

Then that first book sold well and Leisure Books asked for a sequel. I was happy I’d decided to listen to advice and let him Live. And so a sequel grew from a completely different plot line.

[Deena] 8:21 pm: Cool.

[WDGagliani] 8:21 pm: But then the third and 4th books I plotted were more related to the 2nd. So even tho they can standalone, they are still best read in order. But the first book can be read later…

[Deena] 8:21 pm: Question for everyone–What would be your pithiest advice for someone hoping to write a series?

[WDGagliani] 8:22 pm: Don’t kill off the hero…

[Deena] 8:22 pm: Heh. Castle…

[Deena] 8:22 pm: Debbi? CJ?

[DebbiM] 8:22 pm: Write a subject and character you really enjoy, because you’re going to have to live with it a long time (assuming the series is successful).

[WDGagliani] 8:22 pm: LOL, I love Castle.

[cj_west] 8:23 pm: Build a brilliant protagonist that readers will attach themselves to.

[Deena] 8:23 pm: I do too. Lots of fun.

[DebbiM] 8:23 pm: Don’t write to trends, write what you’d want to read.

[Deena] 8:23 pm: Brilliant in what way, CJ? Perfect? Holmes?

[WDGagliani] 8:23 pm: Give him/her almost insurmountable obstacles and make him/her make lots of mistakes along the way.

[cj_west] 8:23 pm: Someone readers want to learn about and follow

[DebbiM] 8:24 pm: I prefer a flawed protagonist to a perfect one. I hate perfect people.

[cj_west] 8:24 pm: I think this is the real work behind a series. In my work, everything flows from Randy Black.

[WDGagliani] 8:24 pm: Brilliant is tough for authors to define. Maybe readers can…

[Deena] 8:24 pm: If it’s okay with you guys, I think we could open the floor to questions. Do you have more to add before we do that?

[cj_west] 8:24 pm: I even have a book tour to teach readers how to do what Randy does

[WDGagliani] 8:25 pm: I love flaws! In flashbacks, my protag keeps getting nastier…

[DebbiM] 8:25 pm: Awesome Bill!

[WDGagliani] 8:25 pm: Since readers are flawed people, as we all are, they see some of themselves. “I would have killed that guy, too!”

[Deena] 8:25 pm: What does Randy do?

[cj_west] 8:26 pm: He is an excellent driver, shooter, and poker player. I’m teaching these things this year on tour among others.

[Deena] 8:26 pm: Oh, cool cj, thanks!

[cj_west] 8:27 pm: One quick note, check out the driving video at www.22wb.com. It is worth a click.

[RooRooMEB] 8:27 pm: I seem to be reading a lot of filler books in series lately what is your take on those?

[WDGagliani] 8:27 pm: Roo, you mean the book doesn’t go anywhere?

[WDGagliani] 8:28 pm: I definitely don’t do that. I stretch it a bit, maybe, but there’s a climax.

[RooRooMEB] 8:28 pm: yes they have little plot, a lot of gore and don’t seem to further the character or series.

[WDGagliani] 8:28 pm: I ‘ve tried to have an over arc to the series, and each book has an arc.

[cj_west] 8:28 pm: In my Randy Black series from book 3 on, Randy is on the run and trying to save people in order to save himself. He has a mission (redemption) and the people he is trying to save introduce a conflict to the story line that is similar to the plot of a standalone novel. By writing the series this way, I am able to continually change setting and introduce subject matter that may be foreign to Randy.

I did this because I was worried about exactly that kind of stagnation.

[DebbiM] 8:30 pm: Well, filler is bad, whether it’s within a book or a series.

[cj_west] 8:30 pm: I can understand how that can happen in a series, though.

[cj_west] 8:30 pm: keeping it fresh is a challenge.

[DebbiM] 8:30 pm: Yes, but it doesn’t have to happen.

[Amber Stults] 8:31 pm: How do you keep track of things about the character/plot lines so you don’t get tripped up later? Index cards, yWriter, a spreadsheet, huge notebook, etc?

[cj_west] 8:31 pm: I keep a history of every character including family, career, psychology, phsiology, etc. It runs 5 pages per character. I do have an article on my process at hub pages if
anyone is interested.

[Deena] 8:32 pm: Can you give us the URL for that?

[cj_west] 8:32 pm: here it is: http://hubpages.com/hub/Character-Building

[DebbiM] 8:32 pm: I tend to use index cards. I write each major scene or plot point on them and lay them out on the floor. I also write a rough outline, keeping track of the days, etc., in the story that way.

I don’t do detailed histories of every character. I have a history of my protag and shorter histories of recurring characters.

[Deena] 8:34 pm: Bill, what do you do to keep track of your characters’ histories?

[WDGagliani] 8:35 pm: I page back through a lot. I’m not super organized… lol, I should be more so.

[spyder23] 8:34 pm: In my stories, most of my characters are part of a family. And for me its more that I am an observer writing down what is going on rather than coming up with it myself.

[FrancesP] 8:35 pm: Do you think it’s possible, over the course of a series, to change protagonists, or shift between a few? Can a side character earn their own book, if say, the setting is the thread holding your series together?

[WDGagliani] 8:35 pm: Sometimes I paste in sections from a previous book temporarily to remind myself what I did…

[cj_west] 8:35 pm: great idea Frances. I think fans would be excited if a side character earned her own book.

[WDGagliani] 8:36 pm: I use many POVs in short sections, but I’d definitely see using a side character elsewhere someday. My protag makes a cameo in another thriller I wrote.

[cj_west] 8:36 pm: Check out M.J. Rose’s Reincarnationist series. she does something similar.

[DebbiM] 8:37 pm: It’s hard for me to picture changing protagonists, because they should be the glue that holds the series together. But I could picture a minor character being the subject of a spin-off if the character were strong enough.

[cj_west] 8:37 pm: Right. If you did this, it would be your hook.

[WDGagliani] 8:37 pm: It would have to be a very demanding character!

[DebbiM] 8:37 pm: Exactly!

[PeachesNCream] 8:37 pm: How long is TOO long for a series centered around a single protag? (Thinking about a series I stopped at about N, LOL)

[cj_west] 8:37 pm: your lifetime

[DebbiM] 8:38 pm: LOL!

[WDGagliani] 8:38 pm: I think the characters get tired of their creators…

[WDGagliani] 8:38 pm: Start looking for a better author…

[cj_west] 8:38 pm: Nice Bill. Don’t talk to my characters.

[WDGagliani] 8:39 pm: Heh hehe. Too late, CJ.

[DebbiM] 8:40 pm: My character, Sam, will never run out of interesting situations. Or leave me for you guys!    

[cj_west] 8:40 pm: Peaches, seriously, I will write Randy Black until I run into a wall with creative ways for him to move forward without fulfilling his ultimate mission. I envision 14 books.

[Enraptured] 8:39 pm: How much do each of you plan your series ahead of time? Do you have an overall plan for the series, or just focus on the current book without necessarily knowing what will happen in future books?

[WDGagliani] 8:40 pm: Enraptured, I hadn’t planned the series from book one, but with book 2 I seeded props and characters that I saw would be useful later. And I created the over arc.

My current plan is through book 4, the one I’m writing, and then I’m going in a slightly different direction.

[cj_west] 8:41 pm: I do have a plan for the remainder of my series

[Deena] 8:41 pm: Debbi, what about you? Do you plan the whole series or do you wing it?

[DebbiM] 8:42 pm: I can’t say that I had a master plan when I started. But one seems to be developing as I go along.

[riversway] 8:42 pm: How do you write your series so they are standalone without doing being an info dump to catch the reader up on events that affect the character in this book? I’ve read books where it is very distracting and irritating – takes you right out of the story.

[cj_west] 8:43 pm: Riversway, I don’t info dump ever. I tell the story with my series character as the hero. He is who he is. Readers can learn about him in other books ( or not ).

It is important to structure each book as a complete and rewarding story.

[DebbiM] 8:43 pm: It takes skill, but you should weave the backstory in with the main plot.

You can do that by adding in a sentence or two when necessary about whatever had gone before.

[WDGagliani] 8:43 pm: An occasional info-dump is okay. Everyone tells you to stay away from them, but pick up any bestseller by anyone you care to name and I guarantee there are info-dumps starting on page one.

Keeping them short is key. For myself, I like action in flashbacks to tell things about my protag by what he did.

[Rhiannon] 8:44 pm: my heroine is very flawed, but then she comes from a broken home. The best flawed character I’ve seen is Vanyel, in Mercedes Lackey’s Herald-Mage series. But then she had the courage to write a homosexual hero who is emotionally crippled when his lover commits suicide. I wish we had more of that type of hero. I say that because she eventually kills him off.     But then makes him a spectral protector of the northernmost forests in her books and uses him throughout her other books.

[Babs M] 8:45 pm: What do you think about using different narrators in a series, different people in the same clan, to get a fresh perspective in each book? This is kind of like Frances’ question…and Anne McCaffrey did this with her series too.

[DebbiM] 8:45 pm: I think it can work, but I find it harder than writing from one point of view. I’ve seen it done by others very well.

[WDGagliani] 8:46 pm: Mine don’t lend themselves to that technique very well, but I do have a story about the protag’s grandfather and father in WW2 concurrently in book 4. That is, concurrently with the present-day action.

[widdershins] 8:47 pm: Is a series defined as more than one book or more than a trilogy (or a four-ology)or an open-ended storyline/thread that goes on and on?

[DebbiM] 8:48 pm: This isn’t an official definition, but I’d assume a series would be at least 3 books.

[WDGagliani] 8:48 pm: Hmm, I guess it could be either. I don’t know how many mine will be, since I contract each book one at a time.

[cj_west] 8:48 pm: I don’t think the definition matters as much as the execution.

[DebbiM] 8:48 pm: The idea is that no matter how many there are, you could add another.

[DebbiM] 8:48 pm: Good point, CJ.

[WDGagliani] 8:49 pm: Yes, Debbi’s right. If you play your cards right.

[cj_west] 8:49 pm: I think lots of us do this AFTER we get strong reaction to a particular book.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:49 pm: I have a suggestion on what not to do. I have a series (first one published as an ebook in February 2009) and it occurs in a fictional city in Minnesota. I created a map for the city, made two copies, and lost it somewhere in my office (I hope). Had I had a scanner then, I would have put it on my computer. The second book will be out sometimes this
year, I think. Not sure, as my editor quit and they’re assigning a new one. I’ve started on the third.

[cj_west] 8:50 pm: Yikes.

[WDGagliani] 8:50 pm: Congrats! But not on losing the maps…

[spyder23] 8:50 pm: My main character is a very strong person. When I first started the second book in my series, I was still completing the first book, and my FMC and MMC kind of took over and wrote the story themselves. It became very interesting. I had a friend tell me that my FMC is
never allowed to meet her FMC…they would probably destroy the world.

[WDGagliani] 8:51 pm: It’s great when they take over, isn’t it?

[RooRooMEB] 8:51 pm: i hear the term (over arc or story arc) a lot, could you explain this, and how it is done.

[WDGagliani] 8:52 pm: Roo, a story arc is the book’s planned action, a-z. I call an over arc what I plan to over 2 or 3 books. There’s probably a more correct term, but since that action happens “over” the book’s main action, it works for me…

[cj_west] 8:53 pm: For me Character arc in a series is the tricky part.

[DebbiM] 8:53 pm: A story arc is a larger story progression that takes place over several books. This is done with TV series a lot these days.

[cj_west] 8:53 pm: Events are easier to manipulate than character.

[WDGagliani] 8:54 pm: Right, but I like 2 arcs, a small one and a larger one. Tougher to do, as I found out.

[cj_west] 8:54 pm: Right, but I bet most of us are doing both.

[WDGagliani] 8:54 pm: Probably natural, CJ, right.

[Ymoinda] 8:54 pm: Bill, you said Wolf’s Trap was supposed to stand alone. How difficult was it to come up with a sequel? How do you think it affected the series (other than the first being easier to read out of order)?

Also (this is for any of you), do you try to write intending sequels “just in case”?

[WDGagliani] 8:55 pm: Ymoinda, it was very tough until I focused on getting away from the antagonist of the first book…

I had to come up with a whole new arc, and a whole new slew of bad guys. But unconsciously I had the same number of bad guys!

[cj_west] 8:55 pm: Ymoinda, I also intended my first book to be a standalone and it grew into a series. I think the best thing you can do for yourself is be organized and know your characters and
settings, in case you grow your book into a series.

[DebbiM] 8:55 pm: I wrote Identity Crisis with the intent to make it the first in a series. So when I wrote the sequel, it wasn’t “just in case”, because I always pictured Sam as a series character.

[WDGagliani] 8:56 pm: I think it made the series better because it made me go out of the comfort zone and into history! btw

[PeachesNCream] 8:56 pm: Lynn Viehl had a couple worksheets about series arcs…http://pbackwriter.blogspot.com/… from her Left Behind and Loving It workshop. I don’t have the direct link on this computer sorry.

[Deena] 8:57 pm: Thanks, Peaches.

[spyder23] 8:58 pm: Debbi, I did the same thing with my characters. I knew that I was going to have at least two books…as I mentioned before, I started writing the first and second books about the same time…I was a bit surprised when the book that I was writing with what I thought was a
completely different set of characters became my third book

[DebbiM] 8:59 pm: Interesting. Thanks!

[cj_west] 8:59 pm: Thanks for coming everyone

[WDGagliani] 8:59 pm: I’m happy to stick around…

[leonawisoker] 8:59 pm: Lovely panel. Thanks!

[cj_west] 8:59 pm: I’m available anytime on facebook

[Deena] 8:59 pm: CJ, Bill, Debbi, thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us.

[WDGagliani] 8:59 pm: Check me out on FB also!

[DebbiM] 8:59 pm: Thank you! It was fun.

[cj_west] 8:59 pm: Thanks for having us.

[Babs M] 8:59 pm: yes, thank you!

[WDGagliani] 8:59 pm: Thanks, everyone. clap clap clap. I’ll be at Killercon in Vegas, end of August, if you’re nearby.

[riversway] 9:00 pm: thanks everyone

[PeachesNCream] 9:00 pm: Thank you panel…a lot of great info to sort through!!

[DebbiM] 9:00 pm: I’m on FB, too, BTW

[WDGagliani] 9:00 pm: Thanks for having us, Deena, and thanks Debbi and CJ! And for all the questions. Hope we helped.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:00 pm: I’m going to check all of you out. LOL

[Deena] 9:00 pm: You were all great. Thanks!

[cj_west] 9:00 pm: One final comment because I think it is good advice…

[widdershins] 9:00 pm: enjoyed the whole thing… thanks all

[FrancesP] 9:01 pm: Thank you everyone!

[PeachesNCream] 9:01 pm: @ Bill…Yay…something in my neck of the woods!

[DebbiM] 9:01 pm: Waiting for CJ’s advice …

[leonawisoker] 9:01 pm: yes, cj?

[WDGagliani] 9:01 pm: Thanks to all you attendees. It was fun. Hope you got some useful ideas.

[cj_west] 9:01 pm: Some of the bigger names with longer-running series recommend putting out a standalone once in a while to give readers an easy opportunity to connect with your work.

[cj_west] 9:02 pm: I am doing this, this year.

[WDGagliani] 9:02 pm: Great thought, CJ. Barry Eisler did that, and started a second series!

[cj_west] 9:02 pm: I heard this from Michael Connelly.

[DebbiM] 9:02 pm: I like that idea. I’ve worked on a couple of standalones. Not published yet, but … maybe someday …

[WDGagliani] 9:03 pm: Keeps things fresher for the writer, too.

[DebbiM] 9:03 pm: Agreed.

[Deena] 9:03 pm: Thanks for that extra advice, cj.

[cj_west] 9:03 pm: again thanks for having me.