Coyote Con

[Deena] 7:14 pm: Welcome to Race 101. We’ll be having a conversation about Racial Issues in Writing. I won’t get everything right. You probably won’t either. Hopefully, together, we can figure out ways we can improve.

[Deena] 7:14 pm: I’m going to start by talking about some basic issues, and then we’ll just talk about whatever else springs to mind.

[Deena] 7:14 pm: There are a number of places where authors get cultural things wrong.
1. Whitewashing the world.
2. Everyone’s a sidekick.
3. Anyone non-white is evil, stupid, or a victim.
4. Everyone non-white is there to teach the white guy how to win.

White washing the world happens in a lot of books. Every character is white. Skin color isn’t mentioned, or if there’s a token black, Asian, or other race of person, there’s only one, skin color and other characteristics are written as if they’re odd, different, unusual or “exotic”.

[Deena] 7:17 pm: Some books have a reasonable complement of characters, but the hero is white. He or she has friends, at least one or two, that are black or asian or some other race, but they don’t often meet bystanders of other races, and these sidekick characters never star.

[Deena] 7:18 pm: There’s nothing wrong with writing a book with a white hero or heroine. What’s wrong is that they shouldn’t be the only books published, and the sidekicks should have their own lines, agenda, issues. Avoid stereotypes. Think about those characters when they’re not with the hero.

[Deena] 7:18 pm: #3 is just about stereotypes. What do you think of when you see the phrase “exotic almond eyes”?

[Deena] 7:19 pm: You can actually talk a little if you want to. It won’t throw me off.

[Deena] 7:19 pm: or not too much.

[Deena] 7:19 pm: Basically, with #4, not every black male is 16-45, wearing his pants around his knees, shooting people and stealing off a truck, or selling drugs, or what have you. Not every asian female is an old witch or a femme fatale.

[alicats] 7:20 pm: actually, i first pictured an African-American, but I think you’re hinting at Asian

[Deena] 7:20 pm: You guys know this, but sometimes it’s easy to slip into those things.

[zan] 7:20 pm: Even the best authors writing about a certain race ie Hillerman on the Navajos get things wrong that those of us who live around them know. In this case Navajos Have NO PROFANITY and in one of his books his main charactor cursed in Navajo out loud.

[Deena] 7:20 pm: Yes, ali, that’s the stereotype.

[Deena] 7:20 pm: Zan, I missed that, and I used to read Hillerman like clockwork.

[Deena] 7:21 pm: I’m wondering how many people have almond-shaped eyes… I mean, aren’t they all pretty much like that?

[Deena] 7:21 pm: Not every black woman is a hooker, a maid, or a grandma taking care of her abandoned grandchildren. Or, god forbid, a “welfare queen”.

[Deena] 7:22 pm: There’s no such thing as a welfare queen anymore!!

[Deena] 7:22 pm: And lots of people of all races get help with their bills, or their food, or what have you.

[Deena] 7:22 pm: (I get a little excited about the welfare queen thing.)

[Deena] 7:23 pm: The last point on the list there (which is really simplified, there are lots more), is the nice lady in the Matrix movies.

[widdershins] 7:23 pm: which one… they were all pretty hot

[Deena] 7:23 pm: It’s the wise old shaman.

[Deena] 7:23 pm: Heh.

[widdershins] 7:23 pm: her too

[Deena] 7:23 pm: The old one. The one who told Neo he wasn’t the one.

[ourladyofashes] 7:24 pm: The Oracle.

[ourladyofashes] 7:24 pm: Magical Negro.

[ourladyofashes] 7:24 pm: Or that’s the name I was taught for that stereotype.

[Deena] 7:24 pm: Native American Shamans, the old Karate Kid wax-on, wax-off guy.

[ourladyofashes] 7:24 pm: Mister Miyagi!

[Deena] 7:25 pm: Yes, ashes, that is the name. The magical negro, or it’s sometimes referred these days as “Our Exceptional African American Friend” or something similar.

[Deena] 7:25 pm: Those kinds of stories, in my opinion, really cross the line into cultural appropriation. The Last Samurai. The white hero who has to come in and save the native people. Agh.

[Deena] 7:26 pm: Obviously, I’m all over the place, in part because I didn’t think I’d have to be doing this, and in part because I get a little excited about it.

[Deena] 7:26 pm: So, let’s talk a bit about cultural appropriation.

[Deena] 7:27 pm: When I was in college, my African American Lit professor–who said that she was the “token black woman” in her department–said no white person should write a book with characters of other races.

[Deena] 7:27 pm: So, I was a little surprised, some … mumble years down the line, and having taken that for gospel… that a lot of people don’t feel that way.

[Deena] 7:28 pm: I’ve come to some conclusion, and I may be wrong, but it’s working for me now.

[zan] 7:28 pm: I don’t agree I know Navajos have lived around them all my life I think I could write them

[Deena] 7:28 pm: Basically, the world is full of other people besides fat white women (thank heavens!). And I can’t just write about copies of myself. For one thing, they’re not likely to sell.

[Deena] 7:28 pm: Zan, yes!

[Deena] 7:28 pm: It’s about knowing the culture, being respectful, and writing from the inside, not the outside.

[widdershins] 7:29 pm: a different interpretation of “write what you know”

[Deena] 7:29 pm: Okay, we’ve talked about the big black marks. Let’s talk about what works. What we do to make sure we’re aware and inclusive.

[Deena] 7:30 pm: Yeah, Widder. I think “write what you know” has become a club against the sides of our heads, and it shouldn’t be.

[Deena] 7:30 pm: Especially not for speculative fiction writers! We’re not serial killers, monsters, aliens, faeries! We can’t write what we know and survive in this genre.

[Deena] 7:30 pm: Okay, free-for-all time.

[Deena] 7:31 pm: Let’s share techniques, issues, concerns. Ask questions of one another.

[Deena] 7:31 pm: Peaches, have you written anything with characters of another race or culture from your own? How did you approach it?

[PeachesNCream] 7:32 pm: A bit of native American after I grilled a friend, LOL

[PeachesNCream] 7:32 pm: Actually, I have a question…How is not mentioning race concidered whitewashing?

[Deena] 7:32 pm: Do you feel like you got it “right”? for whatever value of right that is?

[Oliver] 7:33 pm: Great question, Peaches…

[Deena] 7:33 pm: Peaches, the default for readers, readers of all races in our western culture, is that the main character is white and male. If we don’t tell people he or she is not, they assume the main character is–white and male.

[widdershins] 7:33 pm: and straight

[Deena] 7:33 pm: The fact that we don’t start talking about skin color until someone not-white shows up, there’s the problem.

[Deena] 7:33 pm: Yes, sorry, and straight widder.

[ourladyofashes] 7:34 pm: One of the early short stories I wrote had a main character who was a butler. It took most of my readers all the way through the story to realize that the main character is actually a she.

[Deena] 7:34 pm: Actually, in romance novels, the default is actually white femal protag.

[PeachesNCream] 7:34 pm: Teacher said so…basically I needed a character to mentor my heroine so I’d asked her how she would have done it. Guess it came out well.

[Deena] 7:35 pm: Yeah. You know, I didn’t remember Marjorie Liu’s main character’s love interest being described, and until the third or fourth book thought he was black. I was really disappointed to find out he was a kind of non-descript white guy.

[zan] 7:35 pm: One of my childrens stories has two boys hunting for rolly-pollies one White and one Latino they are saying the sme thing in English and Spanish because my son was in a bilingual class and all the books were one or the other and I felt that both worked better for bilingual learners

[Deena] 7:35 pm: Peaches, what race was your heroine? Did you have a white girl being mentored by an older Native American person? Because that’s a bit problematic these days.

[Deena] 7:35 pm: Zan, that’s very cool!

[kris M] 7:36 pm: do you think in these times of economic turmoil – where everyone is facing unemployment, etc. some of the ‘black welfare grandma’ will go away — if people write about contemp stuff???

[Deena] 7:36 pm: Kris, I don’t know. I really hope so. I think, though, that we need to be really mindful of these stereotypes because they linger a long time after they’re dead. Or ought to be dead.

[PeachesNCream] 7:36 pm: Heroine was white yes…mentor was a woman about 10 years old than heroine

[Deena] 7:37 pm: Something to think about then, Peaches.

[Oliver] 7:37 pm: Is it alright to just NOT mention skin/race? I hardly ever mention skin color or race – and let the reader make their own judgement.

[Deena] 7:37 pm: I wrote a short story with legba, coyote, and anansi as kind of oppositional deus ex machinas, and I don’t think I got it.

[PeachesNCream] 7:38 pm: that story was for a high school class…lost to the sands of time I’m afraid LOL

[Deena] 7:38 pm: Oliver, no, it really isn’t. Remember the default switch on most people is white, male (and for your readers probably not hetero).

[zan] 7:38 pm: In one of my shorts I deliberately didn’t say the gender of my hero. I was surprised that most of the guys who read it thought it was a guy and most of the girls a girl

[Deena] 7:38 pm: Zan, the mirror effect, I guess.

[ourladyofashes] 7:38 pm: Question: How does one go about building against these things when creating cultures without going overboard in the opposing directions?

[zan] 7:38 pm: I thought so

[alicats] 7:39 pm: I’ve written three interracial couples – now I’m wondering if I got them right.

[Oliver] 7:39 pm: Okay — is it just me, or is there too much emphasis on race or stereotype?

[Deena] 7:39 pm: Lady. I don’t know. I think to tell a story as honestly as you can. To include characters of other races and cultures who belong (not everyone in space will be white, not everyone in NY is a hipster), and to write from the inside.

[zan] 7:39 pm: Lady I would say research

[Deena] 7:39 pm: Oliver, this is like the backlash against women being kept barefoot and pregnant. Things get strident.

[Deena] 7:40 pm: There is “too much emphasis”

[ourladyofashes] 7:40 pm: How so, Zan? I can’t really research something that doesn’t exist.

[Deena] 7:40 pm: Would you ignore bullying in school? The anti-bullying people are “too strident”… and it’s still being ignored.

[Deena] 7:40 pm: Lady, can you give us a concrete example?

[Deena] 7:41 pm: Still talking about Oliver’s question. There can’t be too much emphasis, too much care taken, until people, everyone, not just the middle-class white person who’s used to being the center of attention–starts saying, “why are you describing their color? Who cares?”

[zan] 7:42 pm: Lady i think we put things in our world building that we like about a race or culture so research and make sure you include some things that you don’t like as well.

[Deena] 7:42 pm: Oh, good idea zan. Helps the writer keep from idealizing a character, race, or culture.

[Oliver] 7:42 pm: Okay, I was just wondering. My stories – yeah, my readers know that 50% of the men are gonna be either gay, bi or f2M. But I always thought it was best to let the reader use their imagination on the race — and even the hair/eye color of the characters — because it really isnt important to the story…. (more)

[FrancesP] 7:43 pm: I don’t think I have the confidence in my knowledge of any particular race besides my own to write it without getting it wrong…don’t you risk a lot more criticism if you get specific and mess it up? just curious

[widdershins] 7:43 pm: When David and Leigh Eddings wrote the Balgariad series, they deliberately created racial not-quite-caricatures or not-quite-stereotypes for the different peoples that inhabited their world. And it worked because they didn’t set one race above the other…. unfortunately the down side was that they all were there to fulfill the white male saviour myth

[Deena] 7:44 pm: Widder, thanks for that example.

[zan] 7:44 pm: Some people will catch your mistakes IE hillermans again. But only if they really know the culture @Frances

[Deena] 7:44 pm: Frances, yes, you do invite criticism if you get it wrong, but think about the criticism Patricia Wrede (my mistake, I originally said Elizabeth Bear) received when readers discovered that she’d wiped out all aboriginal peoples from the Americas in order to give her European settlers a ‘clean slate’ to work with?

[Deena] 7:44 pm: I’d much rather make a mistake than wipe out an entire people.

[Oliver] 7:45 pm: So what do I describe? If it’s important to the story, I describe height, body mass, and or handicap. If I want to imply ethenticity, I give a character an ethic name and let the reader create the vision in his/her head….

[zan] 7:45 pm: Most people don’t even know Navajos have No profanity

[Deena] 7:45 pm: Oliver, an ethnic name may be enough, though you’d want to be sure that it wasn’t a stereotypical ethnic name. One of my writers named a character Lincoln. Not many black boys being named Lincoln these days.

[zan] 7:45 pm: As far as I know they are the only culture that doesn’t

[widdershins] 7:45 pm: @Ollie, but they are still going to create a racial stereotype based on the filters that that name is… er.. filtered through

[Deena] 7:46 pm: I bet there are more than a few Baracks, though.

[Deena] 7:46 pm: Or what Widder said, much more simply.

[barblucas] 7:46 pm: @ Deena. That wasn’t Bear who did the erasing. That was Patricia Wrede IIRC.

[Deena] 7:46 pm: I’m kind of prejudiced against blond(e)s in a story. I don’t know why. I was blonde half my life, until my oldest was born and my hair started turning brown, and then I dyed it a long time, and now it’s… what my mother would call piggeldy-dung colored. (Which I will dye before I go to Context, if I get to Context).

[Deena] 7:47 pm: I had a point… I forgot what it was.

[Deena] 7:47 pm: Thanks, Barb. I said I’d get it wrong!

[barblucas] 7:47 pm: NP.

[Oliver] 7:47 pm: But when using a name – any name, are we not going to create a racial or a sterotype anyway? For instance, a man named Randy did me wrong 27 years ago — Even now, if a main character in a story is named Randy, I can;t read it…., thus, my problem, not the authors…

[Deena] 7:48 pm: Yes, Patricia Wrede, 13th Child, which is a shame, because I bet it’s a cool book.

[Deena] 7:48 pm: Oliver, like my problem with blondes.

[Deena] 7:48 pm: We all have prejudices against particular people. As authors, we have to set those aside and figure out the truth of the character.

[zan] 7:48 pm: We all have our switches

[Deena] 7:48 pm: That’s why I talk about writing from the inside.

[ourladyofashes] 7:48 pm: This feels very much like one of those things you are never going to get ‘right’, therefore you are only trying to mitigate the degree to which we get it wrong.

[Deena] 7:49 pm: Lady, yes.

[Deena] 7:49 pm: Really, honestly, yes, we’re never going to please everyone.

[Deena] 7:49 pm: But I would like to be the least wrong I can be.

[zan] 7:49 pm: and right changes almost daily

[Oliver] 7:49 pm: Though I do have my beefs about the pendulum swinging the other way, and stereo types being black listed — even though they are a very prominent thing in our lives…

[widdershins] 7:49 pm: I think this is why there needs to be physical descriptions of a character… tastefully and artfully done, of course

[Deena] 7:49 pm: Writing from the inside means research, means getting inside the skin of the character. Means thinking about what it means to be who that person is. Go to a busy place, a library, a bus terminal, a train station… and watch people.

[Deena] 7:50 pm: You’ll start to notice things, like that security guards in nice stores are more likely to follow a black person than a white person.

[Deena] 7:50 pm: All of these people have lives, depth, and the stereotypes deny the depth of a person.

[Deena] 7:51 pm: Oliver, when is a stereotype a good thing to include in your writing?

[Oliver] 7:51 pm: Hee! If one acts like a normal straight guy, not an eye bats. If you add a lisp or multiple hand gestures, watch out!

[Deena] 7:51 pm: That’s an honest question. I don’t think it’s ever a good thing.

[Oliver] 7:52 pm: Deena – I’ll answer in a moment…

[Deena] 7:52 pm: Why is the straight guy normal? We describe his actions. His pursed lips, his fisted hands.

[Deena] 7:52 pm: Anyone else have anything to add?

[Deena] 7:53 pm: Feel free to disagree with me!

[widdershins] 7:53 pm: @Deena’s question….

[Oliver] 7:53 pm: This black list of effeminate male characters is hogwash! Anyone who knows anything about the gay culture, KNOWS that the flaming diva dudes are important to the topical graphic overture of gay men…(more)

[barblucas] 7:53 pm: About stereotypes, how do they intersect with archetypes?

[FrancesP] 7:53 pm: Is there a line between stereotype and archetype, do you think you can still use archetypical characters or do you risk crossing into dangerous territory?

[zan] 7:53 pm: I use a “normal” teenage rebellion in the book I am writing now. I think most teenagers even if they don’t take it as far as my character does can relate to that stereotype

[Deena] 7:53 pm: topical graphic overture? I don’t know what that means.

[widdershins] 7:54 pm: I think stereotypes can morph into archytypes and then the line disappears, but it depends on the skill of the writer

[Deena] 7:54 pm: That’s an interesting question, Barb. I’m not sure I know the answer.

[ourladyofashes] 7:54 pm: Stereotypes are mental short hand. They set up expectations, which a writer is then either able to follow up on or disappoint.

[Oliver] 7:54 pm: I get really tired of not being able to write about the guirls – as they are just as important in the gay culture – and serve a purpose, as other do…

[Deena] 7:55 pm: Zan, yeah, which is what Lady said, mental shorthand, like the tropes we expect in romance novels. We know what that language means, all its layers. Maybe they’re okay to use if we unpack the layers. I can only see writing a stereotype intentionally if it’s in the mouth of a prejudiced asshole.

[Deena] 7:55 pm: I’m borrowing zan’s teen rebellion.

[ourladyofashes] 7:56 pm: Stereotypes and cliches are decent starting points, they’re just crap end points.

[Deena] 7:56 pm: If her character slams doors. Screams “get out get out get out!” and then we cut to the adults wringing their hands, that’s not so much writing as blurbing a stereotype.

[Deena] 7:56 pm: I’m betting zan doesn’t do that.

[PTurner] 7:56 pm: What about people in interracial marriages or who are biracial, for example. Do you move them between cultures/races or lean toward one? (Rhetorical question, btw.)

[zan] 7:56 pm: 5 sons 2 daughters all almost past the teen rebellion stage. which one do you want? Deena

[Deena] 7:57 pm: We chafe against restriction, teens have volatile emotions. You can write a character who has those two things in conflict and boom. story.

[Oliver] 7:57 pm: But stereo types do exist – whether we like it or not – and to deny their exsistance is to flog them off so to speak… A TRUE, talented writer will approach a stereotype – and be not afraid to write it – but embelish it, and breath freshness into the character to show the reader all is not what it seems…

[Deena] 7:57 pm: Pam, I think you have to decide who your character is and go from there. The culture of my neighbors across the street is going to be different from the black teen girl in the middle of NY.

[Deena] 7:58 pm: heh, Zan. Yeah, they’re all different.

[Deena] 7:58 pm: Oliver, is any of the giurrls you know in real life a stereotype? Don’t they each have distinguishing characteristics? Heartaches? Triumphs?

[Deena] 7:59 pm: A lot of their experience is true across the board. They’ll be treated like #$%^&* by some people. Laughed at by others. But if you get to the individual, if you write from the inside, they’re not a stereotype.

[Deena] 8:00 pm: This has wandered from race to all kinds of stereotype, and that’s okay with me, but it’s the invisible people we want to include in our work.

[Deena] 8:00 pm: That includes gay men who are effeminate, black women, asian men, handicapped people….

[Deena] 8:00 pm: Who am I leaving out? We’re always leaving someone out. We do that.

[Oliver] 8:01 pm: Deena – totally – and that is why I say, don’t black list the stereo type – take the time, create the character and take that effenimate male and SHOW he really has the balls in the relationship, as not ALL effenimate males are eunichs. BUT again, we must not be afraid to start with the stereotype to show the reader all is not what it seems…

[Deena] 8:01 pm: Oliver, then you’re subverting the stereotype, and that’s what we want.

[alicats] 8:01 pm: Ah, I think I’m getting it. It’s not so much you can’t use the stereotypical aspects, but they can’t be all there is to the character.

[Deena] 8:01 pm: Write real people. That’s all.

[zan] 8:01 pm: Good and bad

[alicats] 8:01 pm: because it never is all there is to any character.

[Deena] 8:02 pm: Yes, ali. Sure, there might be someone in your book who’s on welfare, but make them real. Don’t make them also lazy, promiscuous frauds.

[Deena] 8:02 pm: And include them!

[Deena] 8:02 pm: Include the amazing wonderful array of people in this world. That’s all.

[zan] 8:03 pm: I identify better with any charactor if they are not perfect put in some flaws

[widdershins] 8:03 pm: have to have flaws, otherwise the reader can’t identify with them

[zan] 8:03 pm: And some good in the bad guys too

[Deena] 8:03 pm: yeah. No perfectly good characters, no perfectly bad characters.

[alicats] 8:04 pm: well, that just makes sense doesn’t it? you’re not much of a writer if you write one dimensional characters. Nothing i hate more than a villian with no redeeming quailities.

[widdershins] 8:04 pm: the best horrible good guy I ever read was Thomas Covenant…. #$%^&* he annoyed the hell outta me

[zan] 8:04 pm: I agree I hate Thomas Covenant

[Deena] 8:04 pm: oh lordy, Widder…there were a lot of things about those books that bothered me.

[Deena] 8:05 pm: actually, “anile old woman” made me insane once I discovered that anile means “old womanish”

[Deena] 8:05 pm: He used that phrase a lot.

[ourladyofashes] 8:05 pm: Redundant much?

[widdershins] 8:05 pm: yep… a lot bothered me too

[Deena] 8:06 pm: Ali, you said, “you’re not much of a writer if you write one dimensional characters”. But we do that all the time. The people the protag brushes up against in the subway, the red-shirt in the hall… but what we want to do is be sure that those one dimensional supporting cast members aren’t all of some other race, or mostly of some other race, or that they’re the only representatives of some other race.

[Deena] 8:06 pm: Even with Mace Windu as a strong character; Jar Jar Binks made a lot of people froth at the mouth.

[Deena] 8:07 pm: You can’t be lazy with your other characters just because you get one right.

[widdershins] 8:07 pm: Jar jar was the Fool

[FrancesP] 8:07 pm: Definately, if you want to make an alien race the victim of racism, don’t borrow from an existing race….

[widdershins] 8:07 pm: or at least he tried to be

[FrancesP] 8:08 pm: he was a poorly done archetype that borrowed from a stereotype…mistake.

[Deena] 8:08 pm: I didn’t find Jar Jar offensive, but he wasn’t representing me, right? Yes, exactly right, Frances.

[Deena] 8:08 pm: Write from the inside!

[FrancesP] 8:08 pm: I love archetypes, but they have to be done gently, I think.
[Deena] 8:10 pm: Final point. Your friends of other races aren’t your teaching tool. One of the things I see in the blogosphere complained about a lot is that people of non-white races are constantly being “used” rather than befriended. They’re fodder for the mill. Write the best you can, research like crazy, write it again, look at it from every angle possible, and then ask someone to read it, or two someones, or ten someones, if you know that many people, who can point out to you where you got it wrong.

[Deena] 8:10 pm: You’ll probably still get it wrong sometimes. I’m sure I will. Just…do better next time.

[kris M] 8:10 pm: @Deena — you missed mentally ill — I’m remembering from the other day’s seminar – not bad guy is because he’s crazy!!!

[Deena] 8:10 pm: Yes! Kris, that’s definitely a bad, bad writing trick that needs to go away.

[zan] 8:10 pm: Thanks all I really enjoyed this

[Deena] 8:11 pm: Thanks, everyone, for backing me up in my not-quite-organized diatribe, here.

[Deena] 8:11 pm: Be sure to comment on the transcript if you think of something else to think about. I’ll add a link to the DP resource page about writing other races and cultures.