Coyote Con

Panel: Anna Kashina, Cindy Lynn Speer, Isabelle Santiago
9PM Eastern, May 29, 2010

[Anna Kashina] 9:07 pm: Hi, everyone, I am Anna Kashina. I have been writing and publishing fantasy for over 10 years. My novel “Ivan and Marya”, upcoming from Drollerie Press, is a dark romantic fantasy based on Russian fairy tales. I love fairy tales, both as a reader and as a writer. I believe they are a great resource and a great tool to use in fiction.

[CindyLynn] 9:08 pm: And I am Cindy Lynn Speer, author of The Chocolatier’s Wife and many re-told fairy tales, all of which were collected in the recent anthology, due out any second now, “But Can You Let him Go?”

[CindyLynn] 9:08 pm: Anna, what draws you to fairy tales?

[Anna Kashina] 9:09 pm: And everyone here who has not read Chocolatier’s Wife, should do it as soon as possible!

[CindyLynn] 9:09 pm: *blush* Thank you.

[Anna Kashina] 9:09 pm: Back to the question: I believe fairy tales are a very powerful tool for fiction writing. Fairy tales combine authenticity of a culture with strong characters and entertaining story. Even a straight novelization of a fairy tale can be extremely entertaining, but one can also use them to create twists and unexpected turns.

[CindyLynn] 9:10 pm: I am seriously looking forward to Ivan and Marvya.

[Deena] 9:10 pm: Both of which stories will be out soon; my computer crash has caused all kinds of delays.

[Anna Kashina] 9:10 pm: Thanks, Cindy!

[CindyLynn] 9:10 pm: You’re right. And I think that understanding fairy tales is essential to understanding, not only the culture that the tale is from, but stories themselves.

[CindyLynn] 9:11 pm: The old stories are the building blocks of everything that’s written.

[Anna Kashina] 9:11 pm: Fairy tales are also attractive because the story is vaguely familiar, but the interpretation is unique to the author. When I pick up a book based on a re-told fairy tale, I have a sense of anticipation because there is an image in my head and I look forward to seeing how it would fit with what the author portrayed.

[CindyLynn] 9:11 pm: That’s true. And sometimes it really messes with your head. I havn’t, for example, been able to look at Snow White the same since Snow, Glass, Apples.

[Anna Kashina] 9:11 pm: I guess it builds up on your good point that they are at the base of all the other stories we write and read.

[CindyLynn] 9:12 pm: (That’s a short story by Neil Gaiman…it’s available online for free.)

[Anna Kashina] 9:12 pm: I have not read it.

[CindyLynn] 9:12 pm: It’s…you will find it interesting, I think. It’s just such a interesting look at the tale.

[Anna Kashina] 9:12 pm: I know movie examples are bad, but there is one which is a horror version of Snow White

[Anna Kashina] 9:13 pm: It also changed my way of seeing this fairy tale.

[Anna Kashina] 9:13 pm: Yes, I should definitely check out Neil Gaiman’s story!

[Anna Kashina] 9:13 pm: Fairy tales provide a great opportunity to explore a rich background and often discover some amazing historical underside to a well-known story.

[CindyLynn] 9:14 pm: And…I find it interesting how you can find the same tales across all cultures. The easiest one is Cinderella? (For me) Because you have tales where she’s a Native American girl who is pushed into the fire by her sisters…one where she’s a prostitute in egypt, one where she actually kills her step mother…

[CindyLynn] 9:14 pm: You’re right. Especially since fairy tales really give you a feel for the culture that they are from.

[CindyLynn] 9:15 pm: What are their values? What makes them afraid? What do they feel they need to be happy?

[Anna Kashina] 9:15 pm: I agree, Cinderella is a great example of a universal story, and one attractive to nearly everyone, from every culture.

[CindyLynn] 9:16 pm: Why diod you choose Russian Fairy tales for your book?

[Anna Kashina] 9:17 pm: I felt that Russian fairy tales have not been explored in fiction nearly enough…

[Anna Kashina] 9:17 pm: And the books that do use them make it some sort of a generic fantasy with Russian names.

[Anna Kashina] 9:18 pm: Russian culture is very different, it is a country between East and West and it blends the mythology of two different worlds in a very unique way.

[CindyLynn] 9:18 pm: How so?

[Anna Kashina] 9:19 pm: It is a Christian country, but not in a way any other country is. Some of what we call pagan cults are an organic part of the Russian Christianity and they go back straight to the worshipping of the forces of nature.

[CindyLynn] 9:19 pm: Stories set in Russia often seem to come with a strong mythic feel…it really is a different place.

[Anna Kashina] 9:20 pm: For example, my book centers around the Solstice celebration that in some form is still practiced today.

[CindyLynn] 9:20 pm: How does one “use” fairy tales in their writing?

[CindyLynn] 9:20 pm: How do you go about writing them?

[Anna Kashina] 9:20 pm: Well, once you choose a fairy tale, I start with a lot of research into the culture.

[Anna Kashina] 9:21 pm: I try to see which cultural and historical elements make this tale authentic to this country.

[CindyLynn] 9:21 pm: For me, I tend to be drawn to a story,…I read a lot of fairy tale books, like Perrault, the color fairy books…etc, and I find myself drawn to a story. For one of my short stories, I wondered what life would be like for a girl who, with every word she spoke, a diamond, pearl, or flower appeared and fell from her mouth. I just get fascinated with ideas.

[Anna Kashina] 9:22 pm: And then, I work on creating the characters that would be both authentic and universal, so that everyone can relate to them.

[CindyLynn] 9:22 pm: For another…and why I know a lot about Cinderlla stories, I wondered why there were *so* many Cinderella type stories. And forged a connection, there.

[Anna Kashina] 9:22 pm: So, how do you go about writing a fairy tale which spans cultures?

[CindyLynn] 9:22 pm: I think your point about authentic and universal characters is crucial.

[CindyLynn] 9:23 pm: I read every Cinderella type tale I could find. I decided that the link was the fairy God Mother character, and told it from her point of view.

[CindyLynn] 9:23 pm: Then I chose the ones I thought people would find the most interesting and tried to work from there.

[Anna Kashina] 9:23 pm: Yes, actually, another great point is about choosing a point of view.

[CindyLynn] 9:23 pm: I mimicked, or tried to…the candence and feel of fairy tales in the style of my writing without going over board.

[Anna Kashina] 9:24 pm: Do you ever try different points of view before settling on one?

[CindyLynn] 9:25 pm: I confess, in all the stories I’ve done so far I knew who the main character was before I started the story.

[Anna Kashina] 9:25 pm: In my story, my original POV was from the ‘evil’ side. The main heroine is in the enemy’s camp and she is viewed as ‘evil’ by the traditional fairy tales tellers.

[CindyLynn] 9:25 pm: I knew that I didn’t want to speak through the view of the woman who plays the Cinderella in the story, because I wanted to depart a little, to tell this story from another direction.

[CindyLynn] 9:25 pm: Oooh. That’s interesting!

[CindyLynn] 9:26 pm: Why did you change?

[Anna Kashina] 9:26 pm: I did not — I added another POV, that of the main ‘good guy’. They made a great contrast that carried the story in a very unusual way.

[CindyLynn] 9:27 pm: I like that a lot.

[Anna Kashina] 9:27 pm: The book still starts with her, but then they alternate, creating two sides to each event. I was very happy with the way it turned out.

[Anna Kashina] 9:27 pm: Thanks!

[Anna Kashina] 9:28 pm: So, how do you know which POV to choose? Fairy Godmother is very unconventional.

[CindyLynn] 9:28 pm: Are you going to write more in the Russian myth?

[Anna Kashina] 9:29 pm: I have another story planned, based on another famous fairy tale. It goes back to the roots of one side character in the current story. This character is bad in the current book, but will be the main good guy in the other.

[CindyLynn] 9:29 pm: It’s a hard question to answer. For her, it seemed like the best conclusion…there’s always some magical creature — a cow, a fish, a magical woman…someone who helps the poor Cinder girl out. She was the most interesting connection…and the most like to be immortal, so we could test out other Cinderella stories over the years.

[CindyLynn] 9:30 pm: That sounds very cool.

CindyLynn] 9:30 pm: So, what are some of your favorite resources?

[Anna Kashina] 9:31 pm: For Russian myth, I was actually researching from books.

[Anna Kashina] 9:31 pm: What about yours?

[CindyLynn] 9:31 pm: I love my Andrew Lang books…and I’m a big fan of http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/

[CindyLynn] 9:32 pm: I have tons and tons of books from all over the world, I just read until I get hit over the head.

[Anna Kashina] 9:32 pm: I didn’t know that one — I should check it out.

[Anna Kashina] 9:32 pm: So, what is the next fairy tale you plan to work on?

[CindyLynn] 9:33 pm: I’m not sure. I am almost done with my story about a Domovoi.

[CindyLynn] 9:33 pm: I am interested in the idea of Brownies, but they are not true fairy tales in themselves.

[Anna Kashina] 9:33 pm: Oh, wow. Russian, then?

[Anna Kashina] 9:33 pm: Domovoi is a tricky character to write about.

[CindyLynn] 9:34 pm: He/they are. Because they don’t speak.

[CindyLynn] 9:34 pm: They communicate through gestures, and they are easily made angry.

[Anna Kashina] 9:34 pm: And, I am not familiar with Brownies — shame, isn’t it?

[CindyLynn] 9:34 pm: Brownies are the Celtic equivalent to Domovoi.

[Anna Kashina] 9:34 pm: That sounds cool.

[CindyLynn] 9:34 pm: (And not at all)

[Anna Kashina] 9:35 pm: OK, got it.

[Anna Kashina] 9:35 pm: I can see a special challenge in writing about characters who cannot talk.

[Anna Kashina] 9:35 pm: It seems really neat.

[CindyLynn] 9:35 pm: The idea of the trickster helper is appealing to somone who lives in an old house where weird and unexplained things are always happening.

[CindyLynn] 9:35 pm: Do you have anything else you would like to tell our audience?

[Anna Kashina] 9:36 pm: One more small point on happy endings. To me they are one of the fairy tales’ appeal. But as an author, one also has the power to change them and that makes the story really unpredictable.

[CindyLynn] 9:37 pm: Yes. And the thing is…the scary thing…is sometimes you have to not be afraid to not give a happy ending…otherwise, your audience won’t beleive the tension. “Oh, Cindy! Cindy NEVER kills off a character, so…YAWN. Who cares if he’s hanging off a building by one hand?”

[Anna Kashina] 9:38 pm: Yep, the endings are a great way not to play by the rules and make the story really interesting.

[CindyLynn] 9:38 pm: Well, I don’t have any other points, so, if you’d like, we can open the floor for questions?

[Marva] 9:39 pm: What is the difference between fairy tale and folklore?

[CindyLynn] 9:40 pm: I think that fairy tales are more…story-like. They are a tale with a beginning, middle in and end. This is not *always* so with folklore.

[CindyLynn] 9:40 pm: Folklore can encompass supersititons, explanations, beliefs.

[Anna Kashina] 9:40 pm: I believe fairy tales are part of folklore, which is the most entertaining — the stories created to entertain based on folklore.

[CindyLynn] 9:41 pm: Anna, that made me go ooooh.

[Anna Kashina] 9:41 pm: Sorry, that came out confusing. Folklore encompasses fairy tales and other folk beliefs.

[Frances2] 9:41 pm: Is it possible to come up with a completely new fairy tale? (by new I mean that is not a retelling or new version of a traditional tale) If so, what are the elements that you think makes a story a fairy tale as opposed to simply another fantasy story?

[CindyLynn] 9:42 pm: I dont know that it is possible…because I don’t think we are in the type of culture that would give us the ability to make it into a fairy tale.

[Anna Kashina] 9:42 pm: Frances: I think if you come up with a new one, it has to be culturally authentic and have the traditional elements of a typical fairy tale.

[CindyLynn] 9:42 pm: Fairy tales were part of an oral story tradition, they were passed down as cautionary tales, as comfort tales.

[CindyLynn] 9:43 pm: That’s such a hard qiuestion, lol. Good one, though.

[PeachesNCream] 9:43 pm: The only thing I know about Brownies are from the movie Willow *snort* and they talked! My next project is a Silkie story…not sure if they fall under fairy tales or myths *g*…and because those stories rarely end happy I’m making sure my story does.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:44 pm: Are your stories immediately recognizable as fairy tales, or are they simply based on them? I have a partially created work that is based on Cinderella, but is probably an urban fantasy. I took a class some time ago in creating stories from fairy tales. I don’t have the ending yet but I do think my “Cinderella” will come out the winner.

[CindyLynn] 9:45 pm: Tw of mine are, one of mine less so because I used the elements of Blackbeard but set in a slightly different world.

[Anna Kashina] 9:45 pm: I think the story does not have to be immediately recognazible as fairy tale, but it has to be recognizable some way into the book.

[CindyLynn] 9:46 pm: I think there have to be enough simularities, definitely.

[CindyLynn] 9:47 pm: They key elements that make that fairy a particular fairy tale (for example, a fancy pair of shoes) have to be there, or the reader will be disapointed.

[Anna Kashina] 9:47 pm: Sorry, talking about our stories in particular — mine is more or less recognizable up front, I believe, but it does not start with anything resembling ‘once upon a time’, but with straight action.

[Frances2] 9:47 pm: You mention happy endings, but originally, didn’t a lot of fairy tales end less than happily for their protagonists? At least in the non-americanized, non-Disney versions?

[CindyLynn] 9:47 pm: This is often very true. That’s a good point.

[CindyLynn] 9:48 pm: I can think of several that do not have happy endings, but won’t name them for fear of spoilers.

[Anna Kashina] 9:48 pm: But I think a reader has to know a happy ending is possible.

[CindyLynn] 9:48 pm: fairy tales have a couple of categories…the one that tells us dragons can be fought and defeated, and the ones that warn us about how we act in the world, and the consequences.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:51 pm: [Editor's Note: Technical difficulties prevented her from logging in sooner] I’ll be brief, since I’m sure you’ve all heard some really great stuff already.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:51 pm: My name’s Isabelle. I write multi-genre romance, but have recently veered into YA fantasy based heavily on myth, fairytale and legend.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:52 pm: My first book, Zerah’s Chosen, is the first in a three book series called the Guardian Circle series, which surrounds the lives of six elemental children blessed (or some would say cursed) by their gods to serve their nation and keep the elements in harmony.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:53 pm: Meanwhile, they’re supposed to be devoid of personal relationships, etc. I used a lot of Greek, Indian, and Biblical mythology.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:53 pm: Fairy tales are fantastic because of their familiar quality.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:53 pm: There’s a very universal feel to fairy tales, something that transcends time and gender and social status.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:54 pm: The best possible way to write in fairy tales is to read them. Read the originals, read the rewrites, read the fresh, new fairy tales.

[riversway] 9:54 pm: what is the structure that makes a fairy tale?

[CindyLynn] 9:56 pm: There are a lot of classes of fairy tale and those structures differe a little. (I like the Aarne-Thompson scale)

[CindyLynn] 9:57 pm: The structure also differs between cultures.

[Anna Kashina] 9:57 pm: @riversway: in a general sense, the structure is similar to any other adventure story. Introducing a character and a conflict, facing the conflict, and resolving it. Structure-wise, fairy tales are the grandparents of all adventure books.

[CindyLynn] 9:57 pm: The basic structure is that the character runs into a difficulty that a magical being that is not a God helps them over come. There is usually a trial of some sort.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:58 pm: This is a fantastic breakdown of the ATU scale Cindy is talking about. http://oaks.nvg.org/folktale-types.html

[Anna Kashina] 9:58 pm: Right, Cindy: there have to be magical beings, of course.

[zan] 9:58 pm: I think the ending is what made them either cautionary tales or comfort tales

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:59 pm: Basically, most fairytales can be placed in categories. Animal tales, tales of magic, religious tales, tales of evil entities like devils, ogres, etc.

Isabelle Santiago] 9:59 pm: People making stupid decision tales. LOL Those are great. Madness always ensues.

[spot_writes] 10:00 pm: Weren’t the Grimms Brothers fairy tales just that? Grim? I mean some of those are definitely not for children. That was the cautionary tale, right? I think Gary said it best the other night when he talked about the “underlying vindictiveness of fairy tales”.

[Anna Kashina] 10:01 pm: Fairy tales were never for children. The most entertaining ones were adapted for children. To my knowledge, Grimm Brothers wrote down what they heard in villages, they did not make up these stories. [Editor's Note: The Grimm Brothers did heavily edit the stories for public consumption. They were not just straightforward recordings of oral tales.]

[CindyLynn] 10:01 pm: Yes, they were. They were partially the product of their culture, too. The lives of the people of that time, when they were writing, were also very bitter, so there’s a mirror into the values of the people that the Grimm Brothers knew and dealt with.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:01 pm: Spot, for a long time fairytales were meant to act as fables, tell some sort of moral story, so they were not necessarily the overly sugary stories of today.

[Anna Kashina] 10:01 pm: When the life was cruel, the fairy tales were cruel too.

[Frances2] 10:02 pm: @Isabelle mentioned “fresh, new fairytales” and my ears perked up… can you speak to that a little?

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:03 pm: Sure, Frances. I’ve found that new authors, particularly in the YA fantasy field, are creating some interesting, fresh fairytale type stories, in tone and magic and feel.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:04 pm: They veer from the typical edgy fare and play out in a more languid, musical way, often involving dragons or spells or magic.

[Deena] 10:04 pm: If you’d like an example of new and re-told fairy tales, a good choice is Needles & Bones, from DP. That’s not YA, though. Don’t let your children read it.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:05 pm: Off the top of my head, I can think of Firelight, which is a new book coming out soon. Can’t remember the author. [Editor's Note: Sophie Jordan, release date of September 2010]

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:06 pm: I felt Graceling had a bit of an epic, fairytale feel to it, once it got past the eighth chapter or so.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:07 pm: Wicked Lovely was a bit of a spin on fae lore and ice queen myth… but that first chapter had fairytale all over it.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:07 pm: It takes a little bit of looking, but you’d be amazed what you find.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:07 pm: I also have a VERY soft spot for creative retellings. Like Ember by Bettie Sharpe (offered for free on her website)

[zan] 10:09 pm: Isabelle, the others told us what fairy tales they were using right now, how about you?

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:09 pm: I’m currently working on a hybrid of original fairytale and ice queen myth.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:10 pm: With other fairy tale references thrown in. Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:10 pm: Brief blurbage: A princess meant to bring her royal household back to power falls in love with her greatest rival and embarks on a journey of passion and self-discovery only to discover their epic love can destroy her.

[zan] 10:11 pm: sounds cool, literally

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:11 pm: Why thank you.

[CindyLynn] 10:12 pm: Very cool!

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:12 pm: Might I know what Cindy and Anna are working on? I’d love to know!

[CindyLynn] 10:13 pm: I’m working on a Domovoi story, because I love the idea of the house elf that’s sort of…the trickster helper type?

[CindyLynn] 10:13 pm: Because they have such strong rules to follow.

[CindyLynn] 10:13 pm: Anna, I think she said she was working on a sequel to her book, Ivan and Marya?

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:13 pm: Oh, nice!

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:14 pm: Cindy knows I’m a big fan. I absolutely loved Chocolatier’s Wife.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:14 pm: Anna, I’m very thrilled to read Ivan and Marya. Its exciting to hear Russian folklore.

[zan] 10:15 pm: I enjoyed this and learned something too “bonus”

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:16 pm: Yay! That’s the goal, Zan.

[PeachesNCream] 10:17 pm: Awesome panel…thank you for all the info

[CindyLynn] 10:17 pm: Thank you everyone, for coming and being so awesome.

[Frances2] 10:17 pm: Really great panel! so fascinating. Thank you!

[spot_writes] 10:18 pm: Thanks ladies, it really was interesting and informative!