We now have external feed support for groups. That means, if you have a group of novel writers, and a blog elsewhere about novel writing, you can automatically post your content from the novel writing blog to the group. This is NOT to be used to market an individual author. Please do not create a group for yourself about yourself and feed your posts from your personal blog here, but feel free to create a group about something of interest to you and feed an appropriate blog’s posts to the group.

We were working on additional facebook support, but it didn’t work out so well. Is that important to you? Let me know, either in a message to me or a comment on this post.

Don’t forget, you can write posts to appear on the blog, and they can be about anything of importance to you. Got a new book coming out? Post to the blog! Getting married? Post!

I hope you’re having fun. Let me know if there’s anything else I can do to make the site worthwhile.

When you create a post, it will be sent to the queue for approval. As long as it’s an informational post (not just marketing yourself), it will be approved and we’ll all get to share in your excitement or learn something new from you. Choose from the categories “General” “News or “Events”.

You also now have the ability to give one another “gifts”, silly, cute little things you can use to let someone know you’re thinking of them. You give them with the points you make by creating posts, commenting on your groups, or just letting us know what you’re up to. We’ll figure out other great things to do with the points too, including free stuff from DP, or anyone else who wants to donate something special.

I hope you’re having fun. Let me know if you want something else. You can make a comment @deena, post to my profile, or send me a private message and we’ll see what we can do.

[Frances] 8:06 pm: Hi everyone!

[Rae] 8:07 pm: LOL

[Deena] 8:07 pm: If you haven’t filled out the feedback survey, will you do it soon? The answer spaces are shorter than I thought they’d be, so if you’re very long-winded it will cut you off, but it will at least give us an idea of what went well [or didn't].

[riversway] 8:07 pm: Good start Frances!

[PeachesNCream] 8:07 pm: You held it all together beautifully Deena!!

[Kris M] 8:07 pm: Deena — no it wouldn’t have worked WITHOUT YOU!!!:awe: I was really impressed with the whole conference. It went smoothly (mostly) and we had some great panels..

[Marva] 8:07 pm: I’d like to thank Drollerie and all the panelists. I’ve learned a lot and wish I could have come to more panels. There are the transcripts, though.

[spot_writes] 8:07 pm: It’s been great. I’d like to thank all the published authors, they’ve all been very down to earth, and friendly, and helpful.

[widdershins] 8:07 pm: oh no! I long-winded myself out of existence!

[LynneB] 8:07 pm: Extremely well organized which made it such a pleasure!

[Rae] 8:07 pm: This was so awesome, Deena! Very invaluable and informative.

[Deena] 8:07 pm: I’m glad you guys have had a great time.

[barblucas] 8:08 pm: Deena, I agree with folks. Everything ran so smoothly, much was learned, and it was great fun.

[Deena] 8:08 pm: This is the link to the feedback survey if you haven’t done it yet: http://coyotecon.com/general/your-feedback/

[zan] 8:08 pm: I have gone to a couple of live cons and one online con before this and I have to say this was one of the best I have been to. Maybe because you all write what I love to read and write.

[PeachesNCream] 8:08 pm: My hubby is ready for it to be over but I’m not

[Anna Kashina ] 8:08 pm: Deena, I lost connection for a moment, but I wanted to join the others in saying how great you were!

[spot_writes] 8:08 pm: haha peaches, my hubby agrees.

[Deena] 8:08 pm: My kids are soooo ready for it to be over.

[riversway] 8:08 pm: I agree with kris , I was really impressed with the panelists, I thought you all did a wonderful job…saying ‘wonderfule panel, great panel’ never seemd enough

[Kris M] 8:08 pm: @Peaches — mine too:D

[Deena] 8:08 pm: Thanks, Anna!

[Marva] 8:08 pm: I hustled my BBQ guest away so I could make this last session.

[Anna Kashina] 8:09 pm: This was the coolest idea, and it worked so well, all thanks to you!

[widdershins] 8:09 pm: meh… kids… what do they know!

[spot_writes] 8:09 pm: oh Marva, that’s funny

Deena] 8:09 pm: Oh, Marva, that was sweet. Well, I think so. Your guest might not.

kris M] 8:09 pm: I’ve been milking it all month – he was like — its not on tomorrow too is it??? I almost said yes just to torture hm

Marva] 8:09 pm:

Rae] 8:09 pm: I agree with Zan. I love that the focus was spec fiction and cultural diversity in fiction. I think I may be going through con withdrawals in the next weekend or so lol

widdershins] 8:09 pm: @kris…. you go girl!

Frances2] 8:09 pm: I think the con was well organized, planned and executed, but the people involved made it above and beyond wonderful.

PeachesNCream] 8:09 pm: LOL @ Kris…me too

Marva] 8:09 pm: Meant guestS.

LynneB] 8:09 pm: The presenters were all very well informed and kept to their topics with practical information. It was all much more valuable than I could have anticipated

Deena] 8:09 pm: We’re going to start a writing group, there’ll be an email going out later in the week to describe it and let you guys know what we’ll be doing.

Anna Kashina] 8:10 pm: Yes, I was thinking about the withdrawal… Can we do it every weekend?:)

Deena] 8:10 pm: Guests… lol, Marva.

Deena] 8:10 pm: Anna, if I had the stamina…

spot_writes] 8:10 pm: How about one weekend a month? One weekend every two months?

Anna Kashina] 8:10 pm: Deena, I can only imagine…

barblucas] 8:10 pm: I agree. I’m not sure what I’ll do with June weekends. Well, actually, I do. I need to finish a novel.

Marva] 8:10 pm: That rhymes.

Rae] 8:10 pm: Ooh! That would be awesome. I love that idea! Is it going to be sent out to the email addies we have signed up here, or is there a separate mailing list??

Deena] 8:11 pm: We’ll be doing something one weekend a month.

Deena] 8:11 pm: Rae, to the email address you signed up with here.

riversway] 8:11 pm: if I didn’t have the Evil 9-5 jobs

spot_writes] 8:11 pm: Sweet!

barblucas] 8:11 pm: Nice!

Rae] 8:11 pm: Okay cool

zan] 8:11 pm: :clap:yah

Amber Stults] 8:11 pm: I thought it was nice to have all of the events spread out over the month. I didn’t have to hide away from my family all week to get things done to participate in the chats.

kris M ] 8:11 pm: I know.. I learned a lot about different genres which was probably what I liked best — the exposure to things I haven’t read or even heard of before…. my hubby thought ‘transformative sex’ was sex with transformers – like the movie LOL

spot_writes] 8:11 pm: I think, other than the being really informative, it also helped me to focus and take myself more seriously.

Deena] 8:11 pm: I’m thinking one session to catch up with each other and learn something new would be good.

Deena] 8:11 pm: oh, good, Spot!

PeachesNCream] 8:12 pm: Same here Amber!

Rae] 8:12 pm: LOL Kris

Deena] 8:12 pm: oh, goodness, Kris! That would be… um… difficult.

widdershins] 8:12 pm: @Kris…. you REALLY need to punish him for that!

Amber Stults] 8:12 pm: I agree, Spot.

spot_writes] 8:12 pm: @Kris, that’s too funny. My hubby asked “exactly what kind of convention is this??

barblucas] 8:12 pm: @ Kris I’ve read some of those stories online.

PeachesNCream] 8:13 pm: LOL Kris…mine was reading over my shoulder earlier during the erotic one

kris M ] 8:13 pm: I already did this week – we had our 15th anniversary onthe 20th and my wedding band mysteriously lost a diamond chip — one of the cats probably ate it — it’s at the jewelers so I’m single all week!!!! yahoo

riversway] 8:13 pm: it’s given me a jump start again…greatly appreciated…I get kinda bitchy doing the earthy 9-5 thing without the creativity , burns you out that life

Deena] 8:13 pm: I was surprised at how much it helped me. It was so good for me to get to meet all of you, and to learn some things in the sessions, and to have a “good excuse” to write instead of just editing.

Deena] 8:13 pm: Peaches! Not during the weeping woman cave, I hope!

Deena] 8:14 pm: rivers, yes, being “normal” 9-5 is a drain.

Anna Kashina] 8:14 pm: Hi, everyone, sorry, I keep having connection problems today.

Rae] 8:14 pm: Hear hear. I really need to get back to finishing up some works in progress! I’ve been off my game a bit lately. This con helped me get more ideas and a focus together.

Deena] 8:14 pm: Anna, I’m sorry you’re having connection problems.

PeachesNCream] 8:14 pm: LOL no….but he saw all that Gregar stuff

spot_writes] 8:14 pm: I would think that it probably will net you a bunch more submissions too, Deena. Whether that’s good or bad though, I can’t say…

Deena] 8:14 pm: oh! hee

barblucas] 8:15 pm: That’s the mark of a good con: when you come out of it feeling recharged and ready to hit the keyboard and create.

Deena] 8:15 pm: Spot, that’s a good thing. We’ll have a new submissions process soon, so hopefully it will be painless for everyone.

[Marva] 8:15 pm: I’m envisioning a doorway with a bunch of writers shoving mss at Deena screaming ME ME
ME!
[kris M] 8:15 pm: I hope all of us from the conference — automatically make it OUT OF THE SLUSH PILE at DP when we submit — just kidding…

[widdershins] 8:15 pm: I’m not the same writer I was before this month

[kris M] 8:15 pm: @widder — ditto

[riversway] 8:15 pm: me neither

[spot_writes] 8:15 pm: Well, it should have helped to get DP’s name out. I know alot of us blasted it about on twitter & facebook.

[Rae ] 8:15 pm: Ooh yay!

[spot_writes] 8:16 pm: @widder, me neither!

[zan] 8:16 pm: I heard about it on Realm of Fantasy

[Deena] 8:16 pm: Spot, I was just thinking about that today. A very nice side benefit. It wasn’t intended, but it did make me feel encouraged.

[kris M] 8:16 pm: when I came I was a solid contemp romance — now I’m thinking about fairies and monsters and stuff…

[Rae ] 8:16 pm: Deena, you’ll definitely be hearing from me in the near future! Lol It would be awesome to be a DP author.

[Amber Stults] 8:16 pm: I’m sure the places that particpated in the pitch sessions will be busy too.

[Deena] 8:16 pm: Weren’t they great? All of those editors were so kind and down to earth. It was wonderful to meet them.

[Rae ] 8:17 pm: Can’t get too many faires

[Rae ] 8:17 pm: OOps! *fairies rather lol

[spot_writes] 8:17 pm: I didn’t make a single pitch session…

[Deena] 8:17 pm: That’s okay spot, I want you all to myself.

[zan] 8:17 pm: I had a good time at the two I went to and yes they were down to earth and approachable

[kris M] 8:17 pm: it’s nice to settle down and remember that ‘everyone’ is really just normal people — no matter how ‘famous’ or ‘published’ they are — we’re all just common folk…

[spot_writes] 8:17 pm: Thanks Deena!

[Deena] 8:17 pm: Oh, and Greg asked if you could tell him more about what you like on his website–it’s not an ego stroking thing at all, nooo, he just wants to know what he can do better.

[widdershins] 8:18 pm: @Kris… and we don’t battle our inner dragons alone anymore

[spot_writes] 8:18 pm: Sure Deena, I’d be happy too.

[Deena] 8:18 pm: Which I should probably plug. He calls it “with intent to commit horror”

[Amber Stults] 8:18 pm: I didn’t think I had anything ready for any of the editors in the pitch sessions but I thought it was nice they were able to get out and meet people on on one.

[Deena] 8:18 pm: and it’s at http://theundeadrat.com

[Deena] 8:18 pm: So, when/if you guys write horror and get it published, he’ll talk about you there!

[kris M] 8:19 pm: oh yeah — i’m still working on that yahoo group that we talked about in ‘creating while disabled’ — so expect emails…

[spot_writes] 8:19 pm: And it’s a really great newsletter, he lets you know what’s nominated for what award, what wins and does reviews

[Deena] 8:19 pm: Oh, good, thanks Kris!

[spot_writes] 8:19 pm: oh kris, I want in on that, I have fibro and I just found out I’m severely vitamin d deficient

[Deena] 8:19 pm: Once you get it set up, let me know and I’ll add it to the email going out to everyone.

[Deena] 8:20 pm: Spot! They’ve begun discovering a lot of fibro patients with that problem. Once you get the deficiency under control, the pain will be much less severe. I was too, and man it made a huge difference.

[kris M] 8:20 pm: ok Deena — it will be open to any physical and/or mental disabled — then again all authors are slightly mentally disabled right!!!

[spot_writes] 8:20 pm: Great, I start the monster doses tomorrow

[Deena] 8:20 pm: I do think they might be, kris!

[LynneB] 8:20 pm: Deena will there be a regular e-mail like monthly on catch up news, etc.?

[Deena] 8:20 pm: Be sure to get your calcium, and if you can’t take the pills, eat Tums.

[spot_writes] 8:21 pm: I told my son all artists are crazy, and we writers are the worst of the lot…

[Deena] 8:21 pm: For those who sign up, yes, Lynne. The first email will be to give you the option and will go out to everyone.

[Anna Kashina] 8:21 pm: OK, my connection seems to be fixed, but I am behind on the discussion, sorry.

[spot_writes] 8:21 pm: My daughter says calcium pills are awful

[Amber Stults] 8:21 pm: Has there been any thoughts towards a Coyote Con in 2011?

[Deena] 8:21 pm: That’s okay, Anna. I’m glad you’re steady on your electronic pins now.

[widdershins] 8:21 pm: @Anna… its a free-for-all… Tums were mentioned a moment ago!

[Deena] 8:21 pm: Amber, oh yes, we’ll definitely be having one next year.

[Anna Kashina] 8:21 pm: For the earlier topic, I wanted to say that pitch sessions were great and some people from my workshop were thrilled about a chance to pitch to Deena.

[Deena] 8:22 pm: spot, calcium pills are truly horrendous. My pharmacist told me to just take tums.

[Deena] 8:22 pm: Great, Anna!

[kris M] 8:22 pm: one of my fav quotes is ‘writing is the act of frustrating oneself with incessant typing in the hopes of somebody actually reading it some day’ LOL

[spot_writes] 8:22 pm: I will try that then. Thanks Deena!

[Deena] 8:22 pm: hee. Cool quote, Kris.

[spot_writes] 8:22 pm: haha Kris!

[zan] 8:22 pm: Kris who said that?

[Deena] 8:22 pm: Let me know how it goes, Spot. The pain in my legs is pretty much gone since I got the vitamin D under control.

[kris M] 8:23 pm: I’m not sure – I’d have to look it up.. I have a bunch of quotes like that which I collect

[spot_writes] 8:23 pm: Oh I will for sure!

[Deena] 8:23 pm: In a few days, I’ll be putting up some stuff about next year, ideas for sessions and so on, and give you guys room to weigh in.

[riversway] 8:23 pm: my favourite is ‘Perfection is a flawed concept’ helps keep it real

[kris M] 8:23 pm: another one is ‘write from your heart, write from your soul, make the best of your talent, and don’t ever let it go, not for anything’ — again don’t know who said it..

[Deena] 8:24 pm: May 1, 2011 is on a Sunday, and we’ll have an intro session that day, and I think we’ll skip memorial day weekend next year.

[spot_writes] 8:24 pm: I love “patience is a virtue” of course I always add “one I don’t posess”.

[Frances2] 8:24 pm: My fave is Dorothy Parker’s “I hate writing, I love having written.”

[Rae ] 8:24 pm: I like that one

[spot_writes] 8:24 pm: That’s a good one Frances.

[kris M] 8:24 pm: I tell my hubby that and he says ‘he’s not virtuous’!!!

[Deena] 8:24 pm: So next year it will be a 21 day conference.

[Rae ] 8:24 pm: These are some good writing quotes!

[zan] 8:24 pm: But I love the writing it is the rewriting I hate

[Anna Kashina] 8:25 pm: I think next year we’ll be more proficient and may not need an extra moderator in addition to the panelists.

[Deena] 8:25 pm: I hate rewriting too, Zan.

[LynneB] 8:25 pm: Yahoo!!! Can’t wait!

[Marva] 8:25 pm: @zan Hear Hear!

[Deena] 8:25 pm: Anna, that’s good, but we’ll also probably have more volunteers.

[barblucas] 8:25 pm: @ Frances I love that one too.

[spot_writes] 8:25 pm: I hate right before I start writing, I get like stage fright, only for writers. Once I get started I’m fine.

[riversway] 8:25 pm: @spot – I used to think that…. ..but then I realized I just moving faster and multi task more than most people…so doesn’t make me impatience…I’m just a few steps ahead of the rest

[Anna Kashina] 8:25 pm: This should reduce some load on you, Deena. I know that by the end of it I was pretty comfortable moderating my own session.

[kris M] 8:25 pm: so can we sign up now for those ‘special session’ tickets yet???

[Deena] 8:25 pm: I can so easily find 100 other things I ought to be doing than writing.

[zan] 8:25 pm: I took a class on writing it once but for some reason it didn’t stick sigh

[Deena] 8:25 pm: Thanks, Anna. That’s good to hear.

[Deena] 8:26 pm: Hee, Kris!

[Rae ] 8:26 pm: I once heard an author say that if you’re a planner, you hate rewriting but love writing but if you’re a pantser, you hate writing but love rewriting. I wonder if that’s true across the board. Hmm

[widdershins] 8:26 pm: Another gem from Dorothy Parker….”All I need is room enough to lay a hat and a few friends”

[Deena] 8:26 pm: I’m not sure what we’ll do about special sessions next year, though I hope we’ll have audio/video down then.

[Rae ] 8:26 pm: Ooh!

[Deena] 8:26 pm: I’m a pantser, Rae, so I think that’s backwards.

[Anna Kashina] 8:27 pm: But yes, next year we’ll definitely have more volunteers. I hope the chat can still hold everyone.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:27 pm: Not true in my case about rewriting. I’m a pantzer and I hate rewriting.

[spot_writes] 8:27 pm: Would it be possible to have some sessions in the morning next year. iI really am the most alert then. And I know for those like Tina, in Ireland, the timing would be better.

[Amber Stults] 8:27 pm: That sounds like me, Rae. Funny thing.. I’m a planner except when I write. I’m a
planner/pantser hybrid.

[Deena] 8:27 pm: Well, next year we’ll also, hopefully, have better chat software.

[kris M] 8:27 pm: is there a limit on the chat size???

[Rae ] 8:27 pm: Maybe it’d be switched? Although I’m a pantser and love rewriting. I guess it’s based on the individual then. Lol
[Anna Kashina] 8:27 pm: Sorry, I am always behind because I have to restart my modem every few minutes. I am using wireless for the first time.

[Deena] 8:27 pm: Spot, yes, we will. It’ll be better for other parts of the world.

[Marva] 8:27 pm: Planner here so I hate rewriting. Once should be enough, right?

[Deena] 8:28 pm: Anna, the wireless is making you restart every few minutes?

[spot_writes] 8:28 pm: wait! What’s a pantser??

[kris M] 8:28 pm: yeah earlier is good idea — always on my 2nd pot of coffee by the 11 pm classes…

[Deena] 8:28 pm: Kris, yes, there’s a limit, but we never reached it. I have a feeling it might have not been reached because it started kicking people out before it got close.

[Rae ] 8:28 pm: You write “by the seat of your pants”. You don’t plan an outline beforehand. Just dive on in

[Anna Kashina] 8:28 pm: Deena, it is some local glitch. I may need to restart my computer or something, but then I’ll miss too much.

[spot_writes] 8:28 pm: Ah. I usually make a plan, then totally disregard it. So I guess I’m a hybrid.

[Anna Kashina] 8:28 pm: Just don’t mind me popping in and out.

[Rae ] 8:28 pm: Ooh a rare breed?

[zan] 8:28 pm: I am definaltely a pantser

[Deena] 8:29 pm: I’m trying to learn to use notecards. I need to be able to plot better.

[widdershins] 8:29 pm: I believe in the diagonal theory of writing… one step forwards and one sideways

[Deena] 8:29 pm: No worries, Anna.

[spot_writes] 8:29 pm: @Rae, that’s me. I’m a planner pants.

[Rae ] 8:29 pm: Lol

[Marva] 8:29 pm: One step forward, two steps back.

[riversway] 8:29 pm: well I’m both a pantzer and planner, I dive in to the deep end then usuallly have to plan to make it work …

[widdershins] 8:29 pm: round and round… dosey doe

[Rae ] 8:29 pm: Sounds about right!

[Rae ] 8:29 pm: Spot, I like that. Planner pants hehe

[PeachesNCream] 8:29 pm: I’m both…different stories call for different methods

[Deena] 8:29 pm: that sounds like a planner pants to me, River.

[Frances2] 8:30 pm: Im a pantser, but writing the last book in a trilogy has forced me to try the other side for a stint.

[zan] 8:30 pm: Even if I did the charactors would revolte oh yeah they do anyway. Most of my stories end up with a sneaky charactor who just jumps in on me.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:30 pm: I do an outline of sorts for a few chapters after I’ve done several chapters, but don’t always follow it. I don’t know what that makes me.

[Amber Stults] 8:30 pm: I start off with an outline or bullet points and then go off in whatever direction feels right.

[Deena] 8:30 pm: I think, Jazzy, it makes you unique… like the rest of us.

[Rae ] 8:30 pm: Don’t you love that, Zan? They just want to take over the story and lead away. Psh. Who do those characters think they are? Lol

[spot_writes] 8:30 pm: @zan, that totally happened to me last night. Now I’m left with a story I love but no idea where to market it.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:30 pm: Sometimes a character will refuse to do what I ask. I’ve also had ‘walk-on’ characters that never left.

[barblucas] 8:30 pm: I usually start with a scene, and just let things unfold from there.

[riversway] 8:30 pm: writer’s are Wierd! I’m proud to one of you

[widdershins] 8:31 pm: forget about the pants… go commando!

[Anna Kashina] 8:31 pm: I usually write 100 pages or so, then go back and write an outline. If I write one beforehand (which happens) it almost never holds to the 100 pages.

[spot_writes] 8:31 pm: It was supposed to be a dark horror piece and it ended up being a humorous horror.

[barblucas] 8:31 pm: @widder LOL!

[Deena] 8:31 pm: (Spot, you might like this place I’ve heard of called DP. They have a great humorous horror novel already)

[LynneB] 8:31 pm: So which one of you will be leading the session on how to plan your story for next year’s con?

[Rae ] 8:31 pm: Hehe

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:31 pm: Humorous horror? What is the name? I’d like to read it.

[zan] 8:32 pm: Thats Ok I wrote what I thought was a dragon love story and my husband says it is a vindictive revenge story go figure

[kris M] 8:32 pm: ditto jazzy

[spot_writes] 8:32 pm: @Deena…hehe. It’s only a short story. Does that work for DP?

[PeachesNCream] 8:32 pm: I vote for Kait Nolan…she changed herself from a pantser to plotter

[Deena] 8:32 pm: Jazzy, The Revenant Road by Michael Boatman. If you’re put off by excess profanity, you won’t like it, but otherwise, it’s great.

[spot_writes] 8:32 pm: It’s called “The Nightmare Guardian”. I sent it to Tina, my beta reader and she loved it.

[Deena] 8:32 pm: Spot, actually, yes. We’ve always accepted short stories, but we’re going to start pushing them harder to take advantage of people reading on the fly. We’re going to open a new bookstore just for short works soon.

[spot_writes] 8:33 pm: @zan, that’s funny!

[Deena] 8:33 pm: ooh, thanks Peaches. I’ll remember that.

[Frances2] 8:33 pm: reprints yay or nay @ Deena?

[Marva] 8:33 pm: Ah, a place to send my shorts. Um, stories that is.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:33 pm: What about 10,000 word shapeshifter novellas?

[Deena] 8:33 pm: Frances, it depends on the story.

[Deena] 8:33 pm: Jazzy, yes. We take those.

[widdershins] 8:33 pm: @MArva LOL

[spot_writes] 8:33 pm: I think I love you Deena. I love writing shorts.

[Rae ] 8:33 pm: Deena, DP is strictly spec fic, correct?

[Deena] 8:34 pm: We take 5k and up.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:34 pm: Good, I’ll start rewriting and polishing them. I’ve got 5.

[Deena] 8:34 pm: Rae, yes. It doesn’t have to be hugely overt, but there has to be something extra-normal about it.

[Rae ] 8:34 pm: Okie dokie.

[Deena] 8:34 pm: You don’t write spec fic do you Rae?

[Deena] 8:35 pm: Man, there are times I wish I could publish everything.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:35 pm: Does anybody here work on more than one WIP at a time and in different genres?

[Rae ] 8:35 pm: I have a hybrid romantic noir mystery that I have no idea what the heck to do with lol. Oh I do! I mainly write SF and Fantasy but the occasional contemp

[zan] 8:35 pm: I agree somewhere to submit my short stuff too oh yeah I’m 5′ tall so that would include me wouldn’t it.

[Marva] 8:35 pm: @deena we all wish the same thing.

[riversway] 8:35 pm: yes

[Frances2] 8:35 pm: @Deena we wish you could too! LOL

[barblucas] 8:35 pm: @jazzy I do.

[Deena] 8:35 pm: awesome, Rae.

[Deena] 8:35 pm: Anna, still with us?

[spot_writes] 8:35 pm: @Jazzy, um I work on more than one at a time, but I think most of mine are the same genre.

[Amber Stults] 8:35 pm: @jazzy I do.

[Rae ] 8:35 pm: Yeah it keeps me on my toes

[widdershins] 8:35 pm: @Jaz… only in the first draft stage… after that I need to focus on one

[zan] 8:36 pm: Yes I wrote 22 drabbles this month 10 chapters on my YA fantasy and two short pieces. Jazzy

[Deena] 8:36 pm: Zan, if you can stuff yourself in an email, I’m sure I’d accept you.

[Rae ] 8:36 pm: Jazzy, I’m currently doing that! Lol. I love it. It’s a little nutty but definitely fun

[Caras Galadhon] 8:36 pm: Wargh. Back again. Hi everyone!

[Rae ] 8:36 pm: Hey Caras!

[Deena] 8:37 pm: hello Caras. I’m trying to figure out what wargh sounds like. I see it said with a sort of dino head toss.

[Marva] 8:37 pm: In re the 2011 conference: How about something on how to choose a genre (or let it choose you).

[zan] 8:37 pm: The head toss would make it

[Caras Galadhon] 8:37 pm: Hee. That works for me! I always pictured it as a sort of waaaaaarrrr-guh sound.

[Anna Kashina] 8:37 pm: I am back now.

[Deena] 8:38 pm: Recapping, the con was awesome, next year will be 21 days, I’ll email everyone who participated and invite them to join a keeping-up-with everyone newsletter. We’ll be starting a writing group.

[spot_writes] 8:38 pm: The way I feel about this con ending is the way I used to feel about the end of a play run. Or summer camp. Lol.

[Deena] 8:38 pm: Yay, Anna!

[LynneB] 8:38 pm: @Marva, I like that idea!

[Deena] 8:38 pm: Oh yeah, spot, Summer camp…

[Rae ] 8:38 pm: Ooh! 21 days

[Deena] 8:38 pm: Marva, that’s a great idea!

[Anna Kashina] 8:38 pm: I do keep getting the lines I missed, I just can’t always reply.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:38 pm: A writing group. Great idea. I love it.

[spot_writes] 8:38 pm: I like that idea Marva.

[Deena] 8:38 pm: Oh, I was recapping anyway, Anna. I just wanted to be sure everyone was at the same place.

[Rae ] 8:39 pm: That’s going to be one awesome group

[kris M] 8:39 pm: Deena – even if only 21 — I’m telling my hubby it’s 31 anyway

[Anna Kashina] 8:39 pm: Deena, a writing group is a great idea.

[PeachesNCream] 8:39 pm: LOL @ Kris

[zan] 8:39 pm: I write sci-fi, Fantasy, Mystery, historical, childrens easy read, read to me and bilingual and YA so I don’t really want any other genres to pick me, Marva

[Marva] 8:39 pm: Brief description of writing group?

[spot_writes] 8:39 pm: I like the writing group as well. I got the MayWriMo digests and I almost never posted, but I liked reading them.

[Deena] 8:40 pm: In the feedback, recalling from memory, more basic writing sessions, more things like manuscript format and how to write a powerful synopsis, and the perfect query letter.

[Deena] 8:40 pm: Do you guys like the idea of more workshops? Where you could upload your work and have it critiqued? Like short story writing, and synopses and so on?

[Marva] 8:40 pm: @zan I’m just finishing a murder mystery which is new for me. I figure try out one of everything, like at a buffet, then go back to what tastes good.

[zan] 8:40 pm: Yes Deena YES

[widdershins] 8:40 pm: YEs…. more workshops

[spot_writes] 8:40 pm: @Deena and cover letters for short stories please. Those give me trouble.

[riversway] 8:40 pm: @Deena, yes!

[Deena] 8:40 pm: Awesome.

[barblucas] 8:40 pm: @Deena I love the idea of workshops!

[Deena] 8:40 pm: Okay spot.

[LynneB] 8:40 pm: I have been doing a little of that Marva.

[Rae ] 8:41 pm: That would be pretty cool!

[Amber Stults] 8:41 pm: I didn’t get to do any of the workshops but I like the idea of them.

[PeachesNCream] 8:41 pm: @ Deena yes

[Deena] 8:41 pm: and more authors from other countries?

[widdershins] 8:41 pm: combination of forum and chat

[spot_writes] 8:41 pm: Oh Marva I like that idea.

[Deena] 8:41 pm: Widder, really? So many of the forums I’ve seen are shutting down because of the spammers.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:41 pm: Some time ago I took a very good class in synopsis writing, but I still hate it and would rather write an entire book. I also need lessons in organixzing my time. I never seem to have enough time, especially for stuff like housework.

[widdershins] 8:41 pm: and other cultures

[Deena] 8:42 pm: We may have to shut down the DP forum. In the last week we’ve had 41 people sign up, most of them with v!ag4a in the name.

[kris M] 8:42 pm: Deena — pretty much all this + anything else you can think of.. but yeah cover letters, critiques, synopsis etc.

[widdershins] 8:42 pm: forums need to be moderated… and only open to registered users

[Deena] 8:42 pm: time organizing. cool.

[Deena] 8:42 pm: Other cultures.

[Deena] 8:42 pm: Widder, that would mean many more volunteers. You volunteering?

[kris M] 8:42 pm: volunteer for what? to moderate?

[PeachesNCream] 8:42 pm: I’ll volunteer Deena

[Deena] 8:42 pm: What about places to ask questions about science, culture, geography?

[widdershins] 8:42 pm: of course…. you already knew that anyway!

[spot_writes] 8:42 pm: @Deena those v!ag4a people aren’t just erotic writers?? Lol.

[Deena] 8:43 pm: Kris, yes, the message board if we have one.

[Deena] 8:43 pm: heh, spot

[Deena] 8:43 pm: Thanks, Peaches!

[Rae ] 8:43 pm: I wouldn’t mind helping myself

[zan] 8:43 pm: I will volunteer for a couple of things Deena

[spot_writes] 8:43 pm: I can volunteer too.

[Deena] 8:43 pm: Awesome. Everyone from this year turns into a volunteer for next year, and holy cow what a con it will be!

[Rae ] 8:43 pm: A time workshop would awesome btw. Very helpful.

[Deena] 8:43 pm: and no one will be tired out at the end.

[Rae ] 8:43 pm: Yeah!

[Deena] 8:43 pm: cool, Rae

[kris M] 8:43 pm: ditto deena — anythng for you — you rock!!!

[spot_writes] 8:44 pm: I agree about the time workshop.

[riversway] 8:44 pm: @jazzy, I always do housework in bits and pieces when i’m writing….house is never cleaner…I sort thru all the bits …when I reach that stop spot that i can’t seem to write anymore…than it clears while I’m doing the housework and I’m wrting again

[PeachesNCream] 8:44 pm: @ Rae….YES

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:44 pm: I’ll volunteer too, but I don’t know for what.

[Anna Kashina] 8:44 pm: I will volunteer.

[Anna Kashina] 8:44 pm: For something.

[Deena] 8:44 pm: Anna, you’re wonderful, as always.

[Deena] 8:44 pm: Jazzy, we can put you to work, I’m sure.

[barblucas] 8:44 pm: Absolutely, and then you might be able to enjoy the party a bit more and not always have to play host, Deena.

[riversway] 8:44 pm: I’ll volunteer too Deena…I’m good at organizing.

[Anna Kashina] 8:44 pm: Thanks, Deena! But you are really the wonderful one.

[barblucas] 8:44 pm: I’m happy to help out as well.

[Deena] 8:44 pm: Barb… I’m not sure what I’d do if I weren’t passing canapes! But yeah, that would be awesome.

[spot_writes] 8:44 pm: I’ll bring cupcakes….oh wait…that’s only going to help me…

[Deena] 8:45 pm: river would widder smack me if I kissed you?

[kris M] 8:45 pm: we should have a workshop where Deena gets to ask us questions and we host..

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:45 pm: My mind is organized, but the rest of me doesn’t always follow through.

[Anna Kashina] 8:45 pm: Spot, how about virtual cupcakes?…

[zan] 8:45 pm: I want cupcakes too Widder share now

[Deena] 8:45 pm: Ooh, Kris… hmmm…

[barblucas] 8:45 pm: Cupcakes…. Mmmmm.

[Rae ] 8:45 pm: That would be fun lol

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:45 pm: Chocolate ones.

[zan] 8:45 pm: OOps spot not widder sorry

[spot_writes] 8:45 pm: haha. If I knew how to make virtual cupcakes, I so would

[LynneB] 8:46 pm: I am tasting the chocolate.

[widdershins] 8:46 pm: @Zan…. glad you qualified that one!…. nearly rushed to the oven to bake a few

[riversway] 8:46 pm: @ Deena it could be dangerous…trouble is she might smack me too

[Deena] 8:46 pm: Next year, better profiles for everyone who signs up.

[Amber Stults] 8:46 pm: I went to a wedding yesterday and left before they cut the cake. Now I want a cupcake!

[Deena] 8:46 pm: Oh… hmmm. would that be bad or good, River?

[Deena] 8:46 pm: I found this awesome cream cheese frosting for my son’s birthday cake in February.

[spot_writes] 8:46 pm: @Deena, profiles would be great. I like going and checking out the other peoples
websites and blogs.

[Deena] 8:46 pm: Now, every time I see cake or cupcake, I think of it. Oh. My. Goodness.

[spot_writes] 8:47 pm: I love cream cheese frosting!

[Deena] 8:47 pm: When they’re ready, Spot, I’ll make sure to let everyone know.

[widdershins] 8:47 pm: river makes an awesome creamcheese icing herself!

[kris M] 8:47 pm: ok note to Deena — next yr have workshop with recipe swapping!!!

[riversway] 8:47 pm: hmmm…depends on what you like Deena

[Deena] 8:47 pm: It’s on allrecipes.com, and I can’t find my password…it’s on the other computer, dang it.

[Anna Kashina] 8:47 pm: How come this discussion always turns to food?…

[Deena] 8:47 pm: heee! river, you’re going to get me into trouble.

[zan] 8:47 pm: I work in a deli right next to the bakery so all day every day I smell all that good stuff and its for the customers not me

[widdershins] 8:47 pm: recipes that can be made whilst writing

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:47 pm: You guys are tampering with my diet. I’ve lost 30 pounds and am in danger of gaining them back again.

[Deena] 8:47 pm: Anna, um, we like to eat?

[spot_writes] 8:47 pm: My daughter made an orange cake w/cream cheese frosting the other night during scott’s panel and it tasted like a dreamsicle…

[Deena] 8:47 pm: Oh, that’s a good idea, widder!

[PeachesNCream] 8:47 pm: LOL Anna…they’re making me hungry

[riversway] 8:48 pm: widder is talking about the 15 min choc cake

[Deena] 8:48 pm: time savers of all sorts, widder–easy cooking, dusting while rewriting..

[Anna Kashina] 8:48 pm: Yep, looks like it! I am getting hungry too. Should we have a food session at the next Con?

[Marva] 8:48 pm: You guys are killing me! I’m non-sugar. Splenda stuff just doesn’t have that panache that white sugar does.

[Deena] 8:48 pm: We’ll definitely have to get some sort of organization expert in.

[kris M] 8:48 pm: widder — no recipes for hubby to make while I”M writing….

[spot_writes] 8:48 pm: I have some great crockpot recipes…

[Anna Kashina] 8:48 pm: How about garlic cupcakes? A signature recipe.

[widdershins] 8:48 pm: @Kris… yougot it gal!

[Deena] 8:49 pm: awesome, Spot. We definitely need a recipe thread.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:49 pm: Why not? There are several authors who provide recipes in their books, like the Cat Who books.

[LynneB] 8:49 pm: Crockpot cooking for writers, session for next year.

[Marva] 8:49 pm: @Anna Ewwww.

[Deena] 8:49 pm: Anna… um…. vampire deterrent?

[Deena] 8:49 pm: I like that idea…

[zan] 8:49 pm: My son is a diabetic and cooks with out sugar all the time some of it is really good Marva

[PeachesNCream] 8:49 pm: I should give you my brownie recipe Marva…I’ve done it with Splenda with good results

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:49 pm: Vampire deterrent. Use a lot of garlic

[Deena] 8:49 pm: Should we do one where we make River take a camera into the kitchen with her and show us her cooking?

[Marva] 8:49 pm: Okay. Forum thread for recipes. Check.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:49 pm: I’ll go along with that. I want to see the pictures.

[kris M] 8:49 pm: videos of cooking…. like it

[Deena] 8:50 pm: yup, I like that idea; and maybe one for timesavers in general.

[spot_writes] 8:50 pm: Yes, I need timesavers

[Anna Kashina] 8:50 pm: I also have one for bacon-flavored ice cream

[Deena] 8:50 pm: It’s the bread. She keeps making bread in every session I’m in!

[Deena] 8:50 pm: wow, Anna… is it actually.. good?

[PeachesNCream] 8:50 pm: LOL Deena

[spot_writes] 8:50 pm: Ewwww….Anna…just ewww

[widdershins] 8:50 pm: River….. can do a whole session

[Marva] 8:51 pm: @zan NS can be tasty, but something about sugar just … ummm.

[PeachesNCream] 8:51 pm: I post recipes…with pictures…on my blog most Fridays

[Anna Kashina] 8:51 pm: Deena — it is if you like bacon. Personally I think it tastes horrible, but I thought the idea is neat.

[barblucas] 8:51 pm: @Anna That always sounds so nasty, but when I see it on the food shows, people seem to like it.

[zan] 8:51 pm: Anna my son the diabetic made beef cake and chicken noodle cupcakes the other day but they told him at work to quit bringing in weird stuff go figure.

[Deena] 8:51 pm: I think I like bacon a lot, but I don’t think that sounds like my kind of thing.

[Deena] 8:52 pm: So, how many of you are actually into the idea of a forum/message board?

[riversway] 8:52 pm: since I don’t eat read meat, doesn’t work for me

[Amber Stults] 8:52 pm: Bacon ice cream sounds delightful, Anna! Michael Symon, one of the iron chefs, makes a maple and bacon ice cream in his restaurants that is soo good!

[kris M] 8:52 pm: me

[Marva] 8:52 pm: Hand raised!

[Deena] 8:52 pm: Because the writing challenge group likes the idea, so we might just combine the two and start it now.

[PeachesNCream] 8:52 pm: me

[spot_writes] 8:52 pm: me as well!

[widdershins] 8:52 pm: Yep

[Rae ] 8:52 pm: Bacon Ice cream? Whut lol

[LynneB] 8:52 pm: I am in!

[Deena] 8:52 pm: Okay then.

[Rae ] 8:52 pm: Oh me! I’m def interested

[zan] 8:52 pm: Hand up

[Deena] 8:52 pm: cool, then we’ll do that.

[riversway] 8:52 pm: OK

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:52 pm: I’m in too.

[Deena] 8:53 pm: I expect recipes from you cooking people!

[Amber Stults] 8:53 pm: What a nice way to make decisions.

[Deena] 8:53 pm: I cook, a lot actually. I get tired of my cooking.

[zan] 8:53 pm: That is my job I cook 6 days a week

[Anna Kashina] 8:53 pm: Deena, I like the idea of forum/message board! Admittedly I like it even more than bacon ice cream

[Deena] 8:53 pm: Me too, Zan.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:53 pm: My favorite recipe is pizza soup – and it really tastes like pizza, without all the calories.

[Deena] 8:53 pm: wow, Anna… I’m glad.

[Rae ] 8:53 pm: Lol Anna

[Deena] 8:53 pm: huh. That sounds interesting, Jazzy.

[spot_writes] 8:54 pm: Definitely. Except I make a lot of mine up. Now I’ll have to start measuring how much I actually use. Instead of just “until it looks right” lol.

[Marva] 8:54 pm: @jazzy post that recipe soon. Pizza soup!

[zan] 8:54 pm: Jazzy send me that one please

[Rae ] 8:54 pm: Meaty ice cream hehe

[PeachesNCream] 8:54 pm: Crock Pot recipe for you Deena http://sherrimeyer.blogspot.com/2010/05/fantastic-food-friday-chicken.html

[Deena] 8:54 pm: Spot, me too! My son is a good cook now, my eldest, but it took him a while of “BUT HOW MUCH DO YOU PUT IN!?

[Anna Kashina] 8:54 pm: Deena, are we going to have a transcript of this session? I think it is going straight to my recipe book.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:54 pm: I made it for a Christmas party, invited people from work. Only three came and I accidentally picked the wrong containers to serve it in. They melted. But everybody loved it.

[Deena] 8:54 pm: OOh, i needed a good chicken recipe.

[Deena] 8:54 pm: Anna, we could, sure.

[Rae ] 8:55 pm: Pizza soup sounds interesting though! I’m a pizza addict so I’m game

[spot_writes] 8:55 pm: @Deena, yes, my children get really frustrated with that.

[zan] 8:55 pm: What are you making with the chicken?

[LynneB] 8:55 pm: Well this has been a pleasure everyone. Looking forward to the upcoming communications with all of you on the forum/message board. Have a great summer of writing. I think I have to go now and find something to eat!!!!

[Deena] 8:55 pm: Lynne, thanks for coming. See you around!

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:56 pm: Uh oh, we made her hungry.

[widdershins] 8:56 pm: @Deena…. catch chook… cook chook…. eat chook

[Deena] 8:56 pm: Zan, the link that peaches posted, Chicken Tetrazzini in a crockpot.

[Deena] 8:56 pm: hee, Widder!

zan] 8:57 pm: It kicked me out naughty computer no biscuit

[spot_writes] 8:57 pm: I love crock pot cooking, it frees up so much time. I just have to remember to get the meat out of the freezer the night before…

[widdershins] 8:57 pm: @Zan…. that’ll laarn it!

[Deena] 8:57 pm: maybe right click on it, Zan. Or I’ll email it to you.

[Anna Kashina] 8:57 pm: I just had one of my lapses — bon appetit, everyone!

[Deena] 8:58 pm: Okay, before anyone else escapes, is there any one last thing you want to say about the con?

[PeachesNCream] 8:58 pm: That Chicken Tetrazzini…I just use frozen chicked breast straight into the pot

[Deena] 8:58 pm: Anything you think would make it even more splendiferous next year?

[kris M] 8:58 pm: Deena – loved it!!!!

[Rae ] 8:58 pm: I do! Looking forward to next year!

[riversway] 8:58 pm: screenwriting panel, please Deena

[Anna Kashina] 8:58 pm: Deena, I think it has been great! Next year will be a sweep!

[Deena] 8:58 pm: me too, Rae.

[widdershins] 8:58 pm: Thank you to everyone… presenters and participants…. the world’s a little shinier now

[Deena] 8:58 pm: Oh, yes! We’ll have that River!

[spot_writes] 8:58 pm: I really loved it! I think next year will be even better!

[Marva] 8:58 pm: @Deena Something on non-paranormal genres.

[zan] 8:59 pm: Anyway I fry the chicken, rotisserie it, make potpie, chicken enchiladas with and without spinach and jalapeño, bacon, and stuff the breasts with feta and herbs.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:59 pm: This has been a lot of fun. I’ll put on my thinking cap and see what I can come up with.

[Marva] 8:59 pm: @zan you’re killing me!

[kris M] 8:59 pm: we’ll always have May 2010 Deena !!!!

[Deena] 8:59 pm: An indie horror film writer has said he’ll do a screen writing session for us next year!

[Rae ] 8:59 pm: Maybe a short fiction panel? Novellas and short stories

[spot_writes] 8:59 pm: yum Zan!

[widdershins] 8:59 pm: @Deena… greaat!

[kris M] 8:59 pm: yes screen writing… yes

[Deena] 8:59 pm: Sorry, my kids were talking to me. Driving me crazy. Can no longer type and talk to small people at same time.

[Rae ] 8:59 pm: Lol

[Marva] 9:00 pm: Bye! See you all in the forums, etc.

[spot_writes] 9:00 pm: haha Deena

[Deena] 9:00 pm: Rae, sure, we had one short fiction panel, but I think there were too many panelists. I think we’ll cut that no more than 3 or 4 per session next year.

[Rae ] 9:00 pm: Oh! I have to see if I got that transcript

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:00 pm: I’ll be leaving now and looking forward to next year.

[Deena] 9:00 pm: Rae, is there something in particular about short fiction you want to do next year?

[zan] 9:01 pm: Deena I loved this and will most assuredly be back next year and I did volunteer Thank you THANK YOU THANK YOU

[Anna Kashina] 9:01 pm: Deena, I think sessions with fewer panelists may be a good idea.

[Deena] 9:01 pm: Thanks, Zan! You were great.

[kris M] 9:01 pm: night jim-bob, night grampa

[Deena] 9:01 pm: Anna, it was a little mad at times, wasn’t it?

[Deena] 9:01 pm: hee, Kris

[spot_writes] 9:01 pm: Indeed, there’s not enough thanks to give you Deena. Everyone has been great, panelists, moderators, and participants.

[Anna Kashina] 9:01 pm: Deena, yes I think with many panelists it turned a bit hectic.

[Rae ] 9:01 pm: Perhaps a way of writing it. It’s a different approach than writing a novel although the same ingredients are there. The plot, obstacles and focus are a bit different. It’d be great to talk about how it differs and how it’ll fit into the future of publishing (esp digital). If that’s not too much

[Anna Kashina] 9:02 pm: But yes, everyone has been great.

[Deena] 9:02 pm: Okay, that would be good, Rae.

[Rae ] 9:02 pm: Great!

[kris M] 9:02 pm: all hail Deena — till next time we forum/chat/write/email etc…

[zan] 9:02 pm: Once again it sucked my writing into a black hole. Any way Deena THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU and I will be back next year.

[Deena] 9:02 pm: I think so too, Anna. Wonderful group of presenters. Everyone was so enthusiastic.

[Deena] 9:02 pm: Okay, I think we should call it. It’s 9:02, and CoyoteCon 2010 is done.

[Deena] 2:07 pm: This is writing erotica and erotic romance with Teresa Wymore and Joely Sue Burkhart. Both of these very talented authors are skilled at writing sex scenes that sizzle, that still demonstrate character depth and move the plot along. I’m still not sure how they do it. Here’s hoping they’ll tell us.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:09 pm: As Teresa said, we love smut…when it’s really good!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:09 pm: Teresa, how do YOU write really good smut?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:10 pm: I write a lot from experience–not blow-for-blow, but real life not ideals

[Teresa Wymore] 2:11 pm: I try to make it real and love it when it sounds like it is

[Teresa Wymore] 2:11 pm: I’m not shy either, which helps a lot

[joelysueburkhart] 2:11 pm: What makes it real for me are the emotions and conflicts…not the body parts.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:11 pm: I’m more interested in what the character wants and is afraid of — especially in bed.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:11 pm: Yes…I think of my writing as erotica althoug some might see it as erotic romance because of the relationships

[Teresa Wymore] 2:12 pm: What is the definition difference?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:13 pm: The lines are blurred more and more, even between romance and erotic romance, vs. erotica.

[Deena] 2:13 pm: I think the biggest difference between erotica and erotic romance, is that there’s a happily ever after, or a happy for now at the end of the romance.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:13 pm: Erotica (for me) is more about the sexual journey, the exploration, where romance is about the relationship, which sex plays a part.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:13 pm: Bleh…forget the future…live for now…that’s what I like writing

[joelysueburkhart] 2:14 pm: There are things now under the “romance” label that would have been considered erotica ten or twenty years ago.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:14 pm: Yes, lots of blurring can happen in those defs

[Teresa Wymore] 2:14 pm: Yes, explicit sex is normal in mainstream, right, just not dominant?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:15 pm: Romance in general seems to be “hotter.”

[Teresa Wymore] 2:15 pm: I write mostly lesbian erotica, both short and novel, but have written straight and m/m. I started publishing in digital about 10 years ago and even that have evolved

[Teresa Wymore] 2:15 pm: I like the “heat” levels..they make me laugh

[joelysueburkhart] 2:15 pm: Me too, Teresa. Is this “hot” or “smoldering” or “sensual” or …?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:16 pm: I stink at labels. My greatest weakness as a writer is my inability to categorize myself. So when a friend told me to submit a story as “erotic” I was like….really?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:16 pm: Like porn, erotica is going through that adjustment of needing it to be more unusual, envelope-pushing

[joelysueburkhart] 2:17 pm: Personally, pushing the envelope can be dangerous — seems to lead to stories that resolves to simple “acts” rather than any real depth.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: yeah, disappoints me too seeing that act/fetish focus

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: to me, that is porn

[joelysueburkhart] 2:18 pm: A true erotic scene isn’t about the anatomy or dirty words, etc.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: you have to have relationships, and few relationships are all about An Act

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: But #$%^&* if those anthologies aren’t sellin!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: I see calls for new ones every week

[joelysueburkhart] 2:19 pm: *nods*

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: #$%^&* #$%^&* #$%^&*

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: neat

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: like demolition man

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: I write d – a -m -n and it translates it for me

[joelysueburkhart] 2:20 pm: So we’ve talked about what we don’t like in “erotica” — what do you like, Teresa?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:20 pm: dominant women, obedient men, and beer

[Teresa Wymore] 2:20 pm: oh..you mean erotica

[joelysueburkhart] 2:20 pm: Wheeee!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:20 pm: The relationships…I like real people having awesome sex

[Teresa Wymore] 2:21 pm: bad people, good people,

[joelysueburkhart] 2:21 pm: Real people having awesome sex – yes. REAL people.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:21 pm: As we said in the transformative sex panel, the sexual relationship is a “hero’s journey” too.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:21 pm: There are going to be moments of doubt and fear along with the heights of pleasure.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:22 pm: I see newbies entering the market and all up tight abut the sex…I understand it take a lot to break through those insecurities and self-revelations, but the acts are not good without the people.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:22 pm: A scene that can take a reader through many emotions, give them chills and goose bumps…now that is a scene that would make me very happy indeed.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:23 pm: Maybe we could list a few pointers or questions we use when writing an erotic scene?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:23 pm: If a writer can make a good story without sex, then she can make a god one with it, but good sex won’t save a story.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:24 pm: My first would be: use your senses, all of them.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:24 pm: Don’t be afraid to explore the darker emotions.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:25 pm: At the risk of TMI, I admit I use a lot from my personal experience of relationships and sex. You have to rely on what you know…which makes all the murders I write about a little tough, but there are sensual connections, emotional connections to real life

[Teresa Wymore] 2:25 pm: Please never watch porn movies and other people’s sex to write your scenes…they end up being written from the outside, not from the inside of someone with the sensual experience, as Joely says.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:26 pm: Lynn Viehl asks 3 main questions when writing: who are you? What do you want? What’s the worst thing I can do to you?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:26 pm: As a reader, I want to feel it, be in the mdidle of it, not watching it.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:26 pm: You can use these same questions to write a powerful sexual story, too. What do you want in bed? What’s the worst thing you think you need?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:27 pm: Good questions

[joelysueburkhart] 2:27 pm: What’s the worst sexual experience the character ever had? The best? (which for romance, had better happen on the page! haha)

[Teresa Wymore] 2:28 pm: What about bad sex..is it okay to write?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:28 pm: We spend all this time writing up character backgrounds…why not sexual backgrounds too? Dark secrets, greatest fears. They can be very powerful.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:29 pm: Admittedly we don’t see “bad” sex, at least in romance, unless it’s the antagonist.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:30 pm: I’ve written unpleasant sex, often in the early experiences of a relationship, but rarely see it in other writers. I know readers want the fantasy, but as a reader myself, the fantasy includes wanting it real…and what’s more real than evolving and communicating?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:30 pm: Which is a hot button for me — don’t give your antagonist some sexual perversion to say he’s “bad.” That’s exactly why I chose to write a hero that was a sadist — he’s the HERO!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:30 pm: Nice point!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:30 pm: That’s not the “bad” I’m talking about

[joelysueburkhart] 2:30 pm: Right — sorry, you mean a bad, not fulfilling experience, but that’s what popped into my head.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: perversions make for good plots

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: and character dimensions

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: Bad sex as in selfish or unfulfilling or unfinished

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: adjusting

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: fears getting in the way

[joelysueburkhart] 2:32 pm: It’s sort of become a genre pillar that the heroine of a romance should experience multiple orgasms and the best sex ever with ONLY the hero.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:32 pm: She’d never have sex with him and not experience ultimate pleasure.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:32 pm: Yeah, I really don’t like that. That isn’t real, and I feel it does a disservice to women’s sexuality

[joelysueburkhart] 2:32 pm: He’d never need to pop a viagra first.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:32 pm: And most women need much more stimulation

[Teresa Wymore] 2:34 pm: That fascinates me that women are writing these erotic stories and representing women’s sexuality in an unrealistic way. Why do you suppose?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:34 pm: Do women not know their own bodies or are they just writing the ideal regardless?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:34 pm: Maybe because we WISH it could be so easy and wonderful? In fact, sex can be a lot of work.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:34 pm: Hahahaha!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:35 pm: Sorry, I have a headache, honey?

[Deena] 2:35 pm: Maybe we’re programmed to think we’re doing it wrong if it’s not easy, so we perpetuate the stereotype?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:36 pm: The fantasy is a man completely dedicated to the woman’s pleasure. He knows exactly how and where and when to touch, how long, how much. And the pleasure flows like a river!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:36 pm: I keep seeing that Smart Bitches “Ur doin’ it wrong” LOLcat.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:37 pm: Are erotic romance like that…the man truly devoting lots of time and types of stimulation? Or is it about 10 mins, like most men, only the women in the story find that enough?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:37 pm: I don’t read a lot of straight romance any more

[joelysueburkhart] 2:37 pm: That’s how MY erotic romances are, snort. The rest, I don’t know.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:38 pm: I wish they all were

[Teresa Wymore] 2:38 pm: Then I could read more again

[joelysueburkhart] 2:38 pm: It’s definitely hard to write that way — but I guess I like torturing my heroes.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:38 pm: Yes, that’s best…heroes need torturing

[joelysueburkhart] 2:39 pm: I like to set myself a challenge (that’s where zombie romances came from). So one challenge is to write an erotic scene with very few “hot” words. Just the emotions and the senses.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:39 pm: How hot can you make it?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:40 pm: How long can you go before THE act?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:40 pm: Without saying a single f or c word?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:40 pm: NOw that’s erotic IMO.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:40 pm: Good idea…I like delving into the emotions as well, avoiding euphemisms usually, but I like the F and C & C & P words alot.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:41 pm: Sometimes nothing but an f-bomb will do!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:41 pm: But the words are so overdone in today’s erotic stories — I like to try and get by without, at least in first draft.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:41 pm: Deena once said I used “drool” too much

[Deena] 2:41 pm: heh. She did.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:42 pm: Now every sex scene I laugh, Deena

[Teresa Wymore] 2:42 pm: Keep that saliva in your mouth!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:42 pm: It’s like some authors use the potty language as shortcut for “this is erotic” when it’s nothing but curse words.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:42 pm: Yes, and lots of telling…”She was hot” “she turned him on”. Show his feelings, right?

[widdershins] 2:44 pm: What about writing the body bits? At some point you have to get anatomical. What works and what doesn’t and why?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:46 pm: Just watch the purple prose. If you have to call it a helmeted warrior with plum head, then please, just use the c word.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:46 pm: And time period

[Teresa Wymore] 2:44 pm: If you’re new to erotic writing, you might want to get some practice at erotic-readers.com. They have a list you can join. Free and goo dfeedback and you can see what others are doing, too.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:45 pm: About words…

[joelysueburkhart] 2:45 pm: Widder, it really depends on your character. I admit that I can get squeamish, but I’ve had characters who’d rather just call it what it is and move on. I had to grit my teeth and go right along.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:45 pm: I like the basics. I used to try for euphemisms, but that was because I was uncomfortable with saying them. But when I read others’ that can bore me.

[Deena] 2:46 pm: I think it depends on the story you’ve written. What would your characters call those body parts? Toad-in-the-hole? cocksickle?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:46 pm: It has to fit the story too…sometimes gentler sometimes coarser

[Teresa Wymore] 2:46 pm: And time period

[joelysueburkhart] 2:47 pm: You’re always going to have readers who are offended, or laugh. I can’t help but laugh when I see certain words in a “romance” but that’s just me.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:47 pm: That’s the hard part of erotica writing…risking self-revelation

[Teresa Wymore] 2:47 pm: And the heroic part

[PeachesNCream] 2:47 pm: @ Joely “but I guess I like torturing my heroes” — you aren’t exactly gentle to the heroines either *g*

[joelysueburkhart] 2:48 pm:     thanks, Peaches, I’ll take that as a compliment!

[PTurner] 2:48 pm: I realize we’re not getting into this, but one thing that really annoys me is people writing bdsm and having no clue about the complicated relationship between the sub & dom. And don’t forget the safe word!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:48 pm: yes…I think a lot of those writers are seeing it and not in the lifestyle

[Deena] 2:48 pm: A lot of people don’t understand the dynamic in a real BDSM relationship.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:49 pm: I was reluctant to write BDSM because I was afraid I’d get it wrong. I studied a lot…and then realized I’d unconsciously been pulling bits in long beforehand. That gave me the courage to just explore it through my characters, and they told me where they wanted to go.

[PTurner] 2:49 pm: I want to write it but I’m going to make sure I understand it and talk to people who are practitioners, so I learn the right way. And I only read authors who are practictioners.

[widdershins] 2:50 pm: @Theresa…I love your sense of the absurd! …. the difference between writing lesbian erotica and straight erotica? Is there one? I think so!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:50 pm: Just a comment @Pam – will you only read a murder mystery written by a murderer? Non practioners who care can write it correctly if they care enough to do the research.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:51 pm: Yes..and I like writing lesbian more not just because of the sex but because the the relationships and the different power dynamic…it’s not a given like in straight, where masculine submission has to be explained

[Teresa Wymore] 2:51 pm: And by submission I don’t mean bdsm, just relationships

[PTurner] 2:52 pm: Sorry, Joely. That came out wrong. No, I wouldn’t. What I meant was I won’t read an author if I learned she didn’t care to do the research. So yes, I would read authors who weren’t practitioners but cared enough to get it right.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:53 pm: Pam, you’re absolutely right that there are really bad BDSM roms out there, no research, etc. But I learned a lot of what not to do from them!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:54 pm: I used to love Laurell K. Hamilton until I realized how much about BDSM she’d messed up! It does make it hard to read it now.

[Deena] 2:54 pm: How do they find examples of the good ones, of whatever stripe they’re reading, so they can get it right?

[PTurner] 2:54 pm: I just don’t like the way some authors think BDSM is only violence and power control. So I’d give yours a try, or anyone else’s first. My apologies! (Insert foot in mouth, bite down hard.)

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: Where do you find good erotica?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:55 pm: No apologies — you’re right — there are really bad ones. I read Dr. Sarah/Joan’s reviews on Dear Author, even though she didn’t like Rae much in my book she reviewed. She DID say I got the BDSM right — and she’s always careful to point out who’s getting it right.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: DP

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: Otherwise, a lot of crap to wade through

[Deena] 2:55 pm: heh. We don’t have enough of it yet, though.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:55 pm: Do you want more erotica, Deena?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: I buy so much I feel I just wasted my money on–whether digital or print

[Deena] 2:56 pm: Yes, good erotica, definitely.

[Deena] 2:57 pm: I don’t want slot A into tab B erotica. That’s not to say I always get it right either. You might find something at DP you thought stunk up the place.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:57 pm: I’ve made the comment on other panels that erotica is judged differently from other genres

[Deena] 2:57 pm: Teresa and Joely are my idea of really good erotic authors though. And I think they do a great job.

[widdershins] 2:58 pm: The lines between SF genres are blurring.. mostly I think, due to e-publishing and indie writers… where do you see erotica evolving to in the next few years specifically in SF?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:58 pm: Good storytelling is incredibly key, whether the story is erotic or not.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:59 pm: Widder, that’s an interesting question. A lot of erotic SF in the past has been about the human woman abducted by aliens sort of story. I’d love to see erotic stories that explore different sorts of sexuality.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:00 pm: Every genre will grow my explicit. Those of us toilign under the tainted label now will be pushed aside by young new writers for whom it’s not a stigma

[Teresa Wymore] 3:00 pm: I believe it will become more of an art form and less utility

[Deena] 3:00 pm: SF has a long history of being intertwined with erotica. Alien sex; machine sex; I’m not sure if it will change a lot, though I hope there will be more that is feminist-centric rather than patriarchal.

[widdershins] 3:01 pm: yep.. if I have anything to say about it

[Deena] 3:01 pm: Patriarchal sells, though, so it won’t go away.

[joelysueburkhart] 3:01 pm: Good for you, widder! Bring it on!

[Teresa Wymore] 3:01 pm: yes…I believe that will happen Deena, if women write their true experiences and not the ideals bequeathed them by their patriarchal upbringing

[chibiBoo] 3:01 pm: what is a good starting point on researching BDSM?

[joelysueburkhart] 3:02 pm: On my shelf are SM101 and Sensual Magic.

[joelysueburkhart] 3:02 pm: And not reading LKH and believing that a safe word is “enough.” Gah.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:02 pm: I mentioned the erotica-readers.com site before. They have lots of amateur writers and some pros and all kinds of interests. I woudl say you couldn’t go wrong seeing what they’re writing and the feedback they’re getting. the feedback is incredibly, brutally honest

[joelysueburkhart] 3:03 pm: e.g. enough was supposedly her safe word. NO.

[Deena] 3:03 pm: I started by finding BDSM groups online and reading their rules for joining and how they define themselves.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:04 pm: If you’re gong to write sex, you have ot have a thicker skin than any other genre, because everyone knows sex and thinks they’re an expert

[Deena] 3:04 pm: I’m not writing it, though. That was enough for me to get a good overview, but not enough to learn how to write it. Joely and Teresa have good ideas.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:05 pm: I don’t like writing bdsm because, like the lifestyle, it felt like a game to me. I deal with power relationships in writng that are not about granted power and the sub is not the one in control

[Deena] 3:06 pm: I’d like to very quickly stress that Joely’s advice not to use flowery euphemisms is a very, very good place to start writing erotica and erotic romance. No lances, no swords of power, no weeping cave of womanhood.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:06 pm: hahahaha!

[joelysueburkhart] 3:06 pm: *dies* Absolutely no weeping caves!

[widdershins] 3:06 pm: ugh… spare me!

[widdershins] 3:07 pm: and no fading to a flowery sunset either

[Deena] 3:07 pm: And another pet peeve of mine, from an editorial point of view, is make sure that the logistics are possible.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:07 pm: Erotica is too often showing us how to conform in the bedroom, not create, but that will change

[joelysueburkhart] 3:07 pm: Don’t tell me he’s hot…show me the quivering muscles, the quickening pulse, the heated skin…

[Teresa Wymore] 3:07 pm: yes, Deena…I liked your reviews in one of the Membra Disjectas

[Deena] 3:08 pm: I read a story where a young woman was watching two others, and she could see EVERYthing, despite the fact that one had her head buried in the other’s crotch. How is she seeing that, past the hair, and the head, and … it made no sense. Get poseable dolls, if necessary.

[Deena] 3:08 pm: Thanks, Teresa… I think that’s the one I’m STILL thinking about.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:08 pm: yes! Funny

[joelysueburkhart] 3:09 pm: Ha, I need some poseable dolls. Are they tax deductible? *snorts*

[Deena] 3:09 pm: And don’t have your characters shrug off rape, or violence, or torture just because the love of their life is there to kiss it and make it better. AAGH.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:09 pm: That’s because the author wasn’t IN the action but WATCHING it

[Deena] 3:09 pm: hee. Someone… I can’t recall who now, buys poseable dolls for each of her characters. Man, I was feeling the doll-lust. They’re beautiful.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:09 pm: Yes, Deena, I read a disturbing one of those once

[Deena] 3:09 pm: Yes, exactly, Teresa!

[joelysueburkhart] 3:10 pm: If you ever find a Gregar doll, I want him!!

[Deena] 3:10 pm: Me too!

[Deena] 3:10 pm: But yeah, you’ve got dibs.

[PeachesNCream] 3:10 pm: there’s enough Gregar to go round…right?

[Deena] 3:11 pm: Gregar should have brothers.

[Deena] 3:11 pm: Joely… you allow fanfiction?

[Deena] 3:11 pm: heh

[joelysueburkhart] 3:11 pm: @Peaches, @Deena, you guys are so oooo bad.

[riversway] 3:11 pm: I think the dolls came up in the costumeing session

[Deena] 3:11 pm: we are, yes… :highfives peaches::

[PeachesNCream] 3:12 pm: :highfive: Deena

[Deena] 3:12 pm: I’m sure it’s in a transcript somewhere, and if we get a member directory up, we can bug her about where she gets her dolls.

joelysueburkhart] 3:14 pm: Thank you everyone for coming!

[Deena] 3:14 pm: later everyone!

[Teresa Wymore] 3:14 pm: I have to run to a girl scouts event     It’s been great!

[Teresa Wymore] 3:14 pm: I’ll miss these panels

[chibiBoo] 3:15 pm: Thanks for the Con Deena!

[Deena] 3:15 pm: welcome, Chibi! It’s been lots of fun.

[riversway] 3:15 pm: thank you, a very interesting panel

[PTurner] 3:15 pm: Agree, as usual. Great panel today and throughout the con. Thanks!

[widdershins] 3:15 pm: Scoott was my fave presenter last night. but I’ve fallen in love all over again… Joely and Theresa… awesome, witty and knowledgable… irresistible combination

[joelysueburkhart] 3:16 pm: Aw, thanks widder! It was so much fun!

[Emily] 3:16 pm: thanks !!! great panel.

[Deena] 3:16 pm: We’ve had some amazing presenters.

[PeachesNCream] 3:17 pm: Awesome panel!

[scottnicholson] 11:02 pm: Scott Nicholson—six novels published through NY, two collections through small press, and three indie books. Also screenplays, comics, songs, articles, etc. I’ve knocked about a bit so I feel qualified to give advice you probably shouldn’t take.

[scottnicholson] 11:02 pm: I’ve been with three different agencies and worked with other agents, and I also run a small digital publishing company as well as work as a freelance editor. And I format ebooks. So I see the biz from a lot of different sides.

[scottnicholson] 11:02 pm: the mini-lecture then we can go to questions

[scottnicholson] 11:02 pm: publishing is a changing –or dying–industry

[scottnicholson] 11:03 pm: writers below the bestseller list have always had it tough

[scottnicholson] 11:03 pm: and soon they won’t be getting published in NY

[scottnicholson] 11:04 pm: publishing has been going to a narrow and enclosed system steadily since the mid-1990s

[scottnicholson] 11:04 pm: now there are only a couple of major publishers that will even look at unagented novels

[scottnicholson] 11:04 pm: and the bottom line pressure is such that unless a book can sell 20,000 copies or so they don’t want to chance it.

[scottnicholson] 11:04 pm: niche or cross-genre books have a tough time

[scottnicholson] 11:05 pm: obviously fad fiction is in

[scottnicholson] 11:05 pm: but if you write it you better hit the trend

[scottnicholson] 11:05 pm: actually you better hit it before it’s a trend

[scottnicholson] 11:05 pm: if you’ve read the reports out of BEA then even publishers realize they are dying

[scottnicholson] 11:05 pm: ebooks will kill them

[scottnicholson] 11:05 pm: but ebooks will probably save you and me

[scottnicholson] 11:06 pm: so that’s the basic story of the next decade, at least, if maybe not the 21st Century

[scottnicholson] 11:06 pm: okay, any questions, or can we all grab martinis?

[scottnicholson] 11:06 pm: or both?

[Deena] 11:07 pm: I like the martini idea. How are ebooks going to save you and me? How do we take advantage?

[graham] 11:07 pm: how will ebooks save authors?

[scottnicholson] 11:07 pm: I should qualify it–ebooks will save you if you have a good chunk of your rights

[scottnicholson] 11:08 pm: major publishers want to pay 25 percent royalty

[scottnicholson] 11:08 pm: but you can do better than that on your own

[scottnicholson] 11:08 pm: a lot of this will veer into self- and small publishing instead of NY pubbing

[widdershins] 11:08 pm: crystal ball question … Will the big houses turn around and suck up all the indies once they FINALLY see what’s happening…. i.e. mainstream them … as they did with indie hard cover publishers?

[scottnicholson] 11:09 pm: I think the dynamic is too different

[scottnicholson] 11:09 pm: the main one being there is no overhead with ebooks

[scottnicholson] 11:09 pm: (aside from basic editing and design)

[scottnicholson] 11:10 pm: unless someone is really promoting you and bringing you an audience you couldn’t reach, why give them the bulk of the money?

[scottnicholson] 11:10 pm: there were a few Kindle success stories…Boyd Morrison, John Rectore

[scottnicholson] 11:10 pm: people who sold a ton out of the gate and got picked up

[scottnicholson] 11:11 pm: some think that will be an emerging model but I don’t see it

[scottnicholson] 11:11 pm: too many successful Kindle authors are already too smart to give up their rights and wait a year and then make less money

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:12 pm: My publisher pays 40%. However, I’m unknown, just learning how to promote. Is it possible to make decent money? I have excellent reviews but, as I said, I’m relatively unknown.

[scottnicholson] 11:12 pm: the last decade, publishers have been whipping authors into building their own audiences, spending time and money on their own promotion

[scottnicholson] 11:12 pm: and getting an 8 percent royalty

[scottnicholson] 11:12 pm: that’s insane

[scottnicholson] 11:12 pm: if you’re going to drive the audience, you ought to keep the money

[scottnicholson] 11:12 pm: 40 percent is pretty generous at the moment

[scottnicholson] 11:13 pm: again, it all depends on what the publisher is bringing to the table

[scottnicholson] 11:13 pm: whatever makes you the most money is the best move, regardless of the royalty

[scottnicholson] 11:13 pm: if the publisher pays 25 percent and sells three times more than you can sell making 50 percent, that’s the smart move.

[Babs M] 11:14 pm: and srsly if i’m with Drollerie or ZumayA or Dragonfly…or Random House…people can still go to amazon.com or B&N.com and buy my book just the same. Midlisters end up doing their own press…why can’t we?

[scottnicholson] 11:14 pm: sure, all you need is an Internet account

[scottnicholson] 11:14 pm: Amazon already has easy opt-in for small presses and indies

[scottnicholson] 11:15 pm: B&N is starting it and so is Apple

[scottnicholson] 11:15 pm: it would be stupid not to, because it’s easy money

[scottnicholson] 11:15 pm: You can get on iPad, not that that’s going to be a huge book audience

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:15 pm: Yes, you can buy from Amazon, but if your book is on Amazon, they don”t pay the publisher-and of course you–until you’ve sold a certain number of copies.

[Deena] 11:16 pm: Jazzy, are you talking print or kindle?

[scottnicholson] 11:16 pm: not true, Jazzy, I get a check every month

[scottnicholson] 11:16 pm: it may depend on the deals they sign with publishers

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:16 pm: I’m talking Kindle. My books are ebooks at this point and I haven’t earned $70 from them yet. Good thing I have other income.

[scottnicholson] 11:17 pm: I’m not sure what my Createspace deal is but I don’t think it’s been paid out yet, but I haven’t been on it long

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:17 pm: Interesting. I’m going to talk to my publisher. I’m also going to look for a different publisher for my next series.

[scottnicholson] 11:17 pm: that’s odd, Jazzy, I made $50 the first month I did it and got it transferred to my bank account

[graham] 11:17 pm: I worry about the market being flooded with free ebooks from wannabee authors offering their book for free to get noticed, to libraries lending ebooks, to millions of out of copyright books, and illegal downloads. How will a new author make any money and get noticed in amongst all those free ebooks?

[scottnicholson] 11:17 pm: Graham, that’s going to be the challenge…

[scottnicholson] 11:18 pm: it’s going to be hard to get noticed in the sea

[scottnicholson] 11:18 pm: but here’s what I think…

[scottnicholson] 11:18 pm: I think readers are smart, smarter at picking the books they want to read, than NY is

[scottnicholson] 11:18 pm: some people like “anointed” books, ones that they are told are good or popular

[scottnicholson] 11:19 pm: but most people know what they like and will find it

[scottnicholson] 11:19 pm: in the long run, you will find your audience, and the chance is fairer than ever.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:19 pm: What is Create space? Also, I joined something called Authornation some time ago but haven’t figured it out yet. It’s the combination of not being a tech expert and not enough time. Does anybody know anything about them?

[scottnicholson] 11:19 pm: Createspace is Amazon’s POD

[scottnicholson] 11:20 pm: they print and ship the books or you can buy your own at a fairly low price

[scottnicholson] 11:20 pm: it’s a great deal, though it does make the books a little higher than mass market paperbacks

[Babs M] 11:20 pm: and just like 15 years ago Siskel and Ebert told people what movies to watch…now reviewers are far less important. people rely instead on what their facebook friends have liked. and tweeted.

[scottnicholson] 11:21 pm: BTW Graham–free ebooks may be the future of the 2020s

[scottnicholson] 11:21 pm: we’ll get to that later!

[scottnicholson] 11:21 pm: for most of us, getting illegally downloaded would be flattering

[scottnicholson] 11:21 pm: but you’re not going to lose if you keep your price reasonable, $1 to $3

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:21 pm: My publisher doesn’t do print books until you’ve sold 100 ebooks. Would Amazon allow you to buy print books anyway before your publisher had turned it into print? Nutty question, I know. I think I need some good advice.

[scottnicholson] 11:22 pm: the publisher should try to make money whichever way possible

[scottnicholson] 11:22 pm: though I can understand it’s extra work for POD but once the work’s done, it’s
done forever

[Deena] 11:23 pm: Could I address some of that, Scott?

[scottnicholson] 11:23 pm: sure, Deena

[Deena] 11:23 pm: POD through Create Space makes your book available on Amazon. You can pay extra to also get it listed in Baker & Taylor.

[Deena] 11:23 pm: Most of the small presses, if they’re doing POD, are going through Lightning Source.

[scottnicholson] 11:24 pm: Yeah I think the books are a little cheaper but then you have the whole nightmare of distribution

[Deena] 11:24 pm: Set up is a little higher (depending on how many books they send through a year), and usually, sales of about 100 ebooks will cover those costs, so they’re not losing anything on an unproven book.

[scottnicholson] 11:24 pm: LightningSource, I mean

[scottnicholson] 11:24 pm: I looked into that and it was a lot of work and expense

[scottnicholson] 11:25 pm: OK Deena, I understand that

[Deena] 11:25 pm: Editing, at least from what I’ve seen–small press wise–is often more than “basic editing”, and then there’s book block and cover art, so the press isn’t looking at no expense at all.

[scottnicholson] 11:25 pm: a lot of different models are emerging

[scottnicholson] 11:25 pm: I don’t know what’s right or best for each author or publisher

[Deena] 11:25 pm: I agree, though, with Scott, that if you’re confident in your editing, and want to go it your own, have a way to provide yourself with great cover art, go for it.

[scottnicholson] 11:25 pm: but I do know what’s best for me right now and what I’d give up

[scottnicholson] 11:26 pm: The big decision is “How much value does a publisher add?”

[graham] 11:26 pm: a 1 to $3 price for ebooks – I can’t bring myself to buy such a cheap ebook, I think they can’t be edited and the author does not value their work, so why should I.

[eBrock] 11:26 pm: It seems to me that e-books can be as productive as music mp3s. I suspect that the biggest down-turn will be that writers will make less money and fewer will be able to make a living at it.

[scottnicholson] 11:26 pm: Ebrock, I disagree, I think there will be more working-class writers

[scottnicholson] 11:26 pm: the food chain is heavily skewed to the top feeders right now

[scottnicholson] 11:27 pm: because there are people sitting around making million-dollar deals on one-line pitches

[scottnicholson] 11:27 pm: most bestsellers are made before they are even written

[scottnicholson] 11:27 pm: hardly seems fair to me

[scottnicholson] 11:27 pm: but that is the publishing industry and what it does best

[scottnicholson] 11:28 pm: It makes perfect sense for them to try to sell a million copies of 10 books

[scottnicholson] 11:28 pm: instead of 10,000 copies of 10,000 books or whatever the math works to

[scottnicholson] 11:28 pm: I want to go to Graham’s point–visit JA Konrath’s blog

[scottnicholson] 11:29 pm: I sell my ebooks for 99 cents or 1.99, and I will go to $2.99 when Amazon raises its rates

[scottnicholson] 11:29 pm: I am making more than I made per book from a NY publisher

[scottnicholson] 11:29 pm: and it’s the one competitive advantage a lesser-know writer has.

[amyleigh07] 11:30 pm: yeah, speaking as an indie filmmaker and working class writer I have to agree with scott. I’m not wealthy by any stretch. by the way things are going I think the higher quality interesting material can find a home you just have to hustle. and if they’re going to short change you at a major house

[scottnicholson] 11:30 pm: you have to build your own audience anyway

[amyleigh07] 11:30 pm: you’re doing all the work anyway it’s just smarter to at least

[scottnicholson] 11:30 pm: plus you get the direct connection

[eBrock] 11:28 pm: I worry that the average reader won’t be willing to pay competitive prices for ebooks. I know far too many people who think that since it’s “digital” it should be free (or at last much cheaper).

[scottnicholson] 11:31 pm: eBrock, here’s what is stunning to me:

[eBrock] 11:31 pm: Maybe I’m being too cynical?

[amyleigh07] 11:31 pm: find a way to keep your rights and do it yourself or with a small press

[scottnicholson] 11:31 pm: on Netflix, you can get all the movies you want to watch for a month for $8 or $9

[scottnicholson] 11:31 pm: NY expects you to pay $15 for ONE ebook

[scottnicholson] 11:31 pm: that’s clearly skewed and is not getting supported

[scottnicholson] 11:32 pm: compared to a rock single, $1 to $3 is very fair for a book that has nothing but content, no “product”

[scottnicholson] 11:32 pm: I expect by this time next year major new releases will be $5 in ebooks

[scottnicholson] 11:32 pm: indies may have to get down to 99 cents to compete then

[scottnicholson] 11:33 pm: look at Amazon and the Kindle bestseller list

[scottnicholson] 11:33 pm: more indies cracking it with cheap books, even NY is moving down, even after that pricing war

[scottnicholson] 11:33 pm: consumers set the price, not wishful thinking

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:34 pm: I’ve been wishing I could go to another publisher (I know of one recommended by someone
at the Univ of Wis) but my first book is a series and the second one in the series is coming out sometime this year. I
have another book out but it’s not part of the series. Also, my publisher charges $5.99 for my ebooks.

[scottnicholson] 11:34 pm: a little more on cheap ebooks–you can sell waaay more copies at cheap prices

[scottnicholson] 11:34 pm: you will get readers who would hesitate over a $15 trade paperback or even $8 mass market paperback

[scottnicholson] 11:35 pm: I know firsthand–They Hunger from Kensington is $5.59 and is usually ranked around 80,000 on Amazon

[scottnicholson] 11:35 pm: my cheap ebooks rank from 3,00 to 8,000 usually

[scottnicholson] 11:35 pm: clearly the lower price is way more than offset by volume

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:36 pm: Is it possible to find out from Amazon how many of my books have sold?

[scottnicholson] 11:36 pm: yes they tell you in real time if you have your own DTP (upload) account

[scottnicholson] 11:36 pm: I can go 10 times a day and check if I wanted

[scottnicholson] 11:37 pm: but your publisher gets that info, probably

[scottnicholson] 11:37 pm: not trying to disrespect publishers, but again, you give up control, so make sure they offer enough to make it workth it

[scottnicholson] 11:37 pm: it’s a partnership

[Deena] 11:37 pm: But if your publisher signed up through Mobipocket, they probably won’t be able to access that information easily.

[spot_writes] 11:38 pm: I’m convinced epub is the way of the future, here’s why…a friend convinced me to offer my blog for subscription on kindle. I got a check the other day. People will pay, granted, it’s a pittance, to read what I offer for free on the Internet every day, just for the convenience of having it delivered to their kindle. Crazy!

[scottnicholson] 11:38 pm: I think they pay quarterly or something

[Deena] 11:38 pm: I meant the kindle through Mobipocket, Scott. We used to do it that way. It doesn’t work.

[Deena] 11:38 pm: Sorry, not intending to derail.

[scottnicholson] 11:38 pm: ah I see, back in the “old days”!

[Deena] 11:38 pm: It’s been a long day.

[scottnicholson] 11:39 pm: this is all changing so fast it’s hard to track

[scottnicholson] 11:39 pm: B&N decided they want in on it, so they are starting indie uploads

[scottnicholson] 11:39 pm: Apple is doing it too

[scottnicholson] 11:39 pm: Amazon has the advantage because they want to drive traffic to also buy underwear, tires, and even iPads

[Deena] 11:40 pm: Borders now too.

[Deena] 11:40 pm: eBrock asked: Do you think the fact that ebook readers will have to be “updated” every few years will have an impact on sales? One of the reasons I have been holding off on purchasing an eBook is because (just like computers/cell phones) they will always need to be upgraded.

[scottnicholson] 11:40 pm: an army of indie authors pushing people to their books at Amazon is worth it, plus they make money on the book sales too, It’s brilliant

[scottnicholson] 11:40 pm: the Wal-mart of publishing, for better or worse

[scottnicholson] 11:40 pm: eBrock, I am waiting myself, I use the free PC Kindle

[scottnicholson] 11:41 pm: I think ePub will be the dominant format one day

[scottnicholson] 11:41 pm: everybody wants to sell their own device and have it proprietary to keep the audience

[scottnicholson] 11:41 pm: if anyone remembers the different VHS and DAT tape wars

[scottnicholson] 11:41 pm: same thing

[widdershins] 11:42 pm: you mentioned ebooks being free in the future circa 2020?

[scottnicholson] 11:43 pm: well if ebooks get under $10 by the end of the year (and I’m already seeing established backlist at $3 to $5 of Koontz and the like)

[scottnicholson] 11:43 pm: then the bottom end will move to 99 cents

[scottnicholson] 11:43 pm: and readers decide they don’t want to pay for any content

[scottnicholson] 11:43 pm: that’s when it gets tough and you have to find sponsors, advertisers or other ways to make money

[scottnicholson] 11:44 pm: but interactive or transmedia “books” may be the rage then anyway

[scottnicholson] 11:44 pm: it’s changing faster than anyone predicted, in ways no one can foresee

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:44 pm: I’ve never heard of the free PC Kindle. What is it? And what’s interactive or transmedia books?

scottnicholson] 11:44 pm: free Kindle, just go to amazon and look at any kindle book

[scottnicholson] 11:45 pm: there’s a click there to get it, even for Mac

[Deena] 11:45 pm: It’s an ebook reading program for the PC or MAC

[scottnicholson] 11:45 pm: you can get a lot of free ebooks and a kindle tonight and read yourself silly

[scottnicholson] 11:45 pm: go into classic lit and public domain and you might never buy a book again

[scottnicholson] 11:46 pm: transmedia is pictutes, audio, hyperlinks, etc, extra stuff to add to the book

[scottnicholson] 11:46 pm: publishers think this is where they have a shot because they have the money to develop that content

[scottnicholson] 11:46 pm: it will be harder for indies to develop complex formats

[scottnicholson] 11:46 pm: but then you get into movies and away from books, so the audience is not the same anyway

[eBrock] 11:46 pm: Will/are agents still the necessity that they are for print?

[scottnicholson] 11:47 pm: eBrock, agents are vital if you want to sell to a major publisher

[scottnicholson] 11:47 pm: again, you are giving up 15 percent but that’s the only way you will get a big check

[scottnicholson] 11:47 pm: I think publishing in NY is worth it for maybe the next five years

[scottnicholson] 11:48 pm: but remember, even if you wrote it now it might take two years for it to get out

[scottnicholson] 11:48 pm: bookstores are dying fast

[scottnicholson] 11:48 pm: and that’s one of the three main advantages of a major publisher–getting you on shelves

[scottnicholson] 11:50 pm: agents really have little place in the ebook world

[scottnicholson] 11:50 pm: unless they are spinning your ebooks into different markets or products

[spot_writes] 11:51 pm: did you have an agent who worked with the movie deal or did you do it all yourself? How did
that come about?

[scottnicholson] 11:51 pm: long story, basically I set it up myself and then had to beat the agent into following through

[scottnicholson] 11:51 pm: which is actually the way a lot of the world works

[scottnicholson] 11:51 pm: you always have to believe in yourself more than anyone

[scottnicholson] 11:52 pm: agents can be a drag as much as a help

[scottnicholson] 11:52 pm: it’s a marriage

[spot_writes] 11:52 pm: Lol.

[scottnicholson] 11:52 pm: but in the end, they are polygamous and you only get one…unfair

[Deena] 11:52 pm: I offered to reprint a book for an author I admire at a very high royalty because he was having a lot of financial difficulty. He loved the idea, but wouldn’t contact his agent. He asked me to do it. I did, she never responded. I asked him about it, he said, “Oh, she’s like that.”

[scottnicholson] 11:52 pm: so they will always have some they may like better than you or who makes them more money

[scottnicholson] 11:53 pm: yeah, I couldn’t get my agent to do overseas deals

[scottnicholson] 11:53 pm: after I canned him, I immediately got three on my own

[scottnicholson] 11:53 pm: when they are a barrier instead of an asset, well, they can walk home from Lover’s Leap

[eBrock] 11:53 pm: Since it’s obvious that ebooks are the future, what criteria should we look for in purchasing a e-reader (both as a reader & writer)? It seems that each have there (dis)advantages.

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: eBrock, that’s very complex and depends on taste

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: they are starting to show up in outlets like Target and elsewhere

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: you can try out a Nook at B&N

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: go to mobileread.com and read about the different ones

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: it’s all overwhelming to me

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: I just saw my first iPad and I love what it does for comics

[Deena] 11:54 pm: Teleread’s a nice site too.

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: but I wouldn’t buy one for $100

[scottnicholson] 11:55 pm: much less having to pay their monthly fees

[Deena] 11:55 pm: There’s a transcript up on here somewhere that talks about all the differences. I can’t remember which session it was.

[scottnicholson] 11:55 pm: yeah Teleread is good, mostly linking to lots of resources

[scottnicholson] 11:55 pm: Sarah Weinman has a good article too

[widdershins] 11:55 pm: re: Agent tales …grounds for divorce I’d say! @ Ebrock… talk to a teenager geek… they’re a great resource

[scottnicholson] 11:57 pm: summary–just be aware of what’s going on and keep up with changes

[scottnicholson] 11:57 pm: think of ebooks as never going out of print

[scottnicholson] 11:57 pm: make sure your publisher gives as much or more than they take

[scottnicholson] 11:58 pm: and still the most important thing is be committed to the craft and your passion! Way more important than worrying about format or print/e

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:59 pm: Is there any recourse if a publisher hasn’t been fair? I’m thinking of mine. What about making an “or else” statement? I want some books in print so I can do book signings, etc.

[scottnicholson] 11:59 pm: Hmm I am not an attorney and without seeing the contract I couldn’t say anyway

[scottnicholson] 11:59 pm: just look it over and talk to the publisher

[scottnicholson] 11:59 pm: if all else fails, concentrate on the next book

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: five of my books are left for dead at Kensington

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: it’s a sick, sad feeling

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:00 am: The next book is part of the same series.

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: they are not even putting them out as ebooks

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: makes no sense

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: Jazzy if it’s written you either get your rights back and publish the two yourself

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: or move on to something else

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: or just bite the bullet and go with it

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:01 am: Thanks.

[scottnicholson] 12:01 am: sorry I know that’s no fun

[riversway] 12:02 am: if you live in Canada you can go to a legal aid society and speak to a lawyer for an hour

[scottnicholson] 12:02 am: Jazzy you might even have to buy your rights back

[riversway] 12:02 am: sometimes they are lawyers in training

[scottnicholson] 12:02 am: if it’s not selling a whole lot it may make more sense for everybody

[riversway] 12:02 am: perhaps something like that in the US

[riversway] 12:02 am: its worth a try

[scottnicholson] 12:03 am: yes there are legal aid groups

[riversway] 12:03 am: maybe you can ditch the publisher

[scottnicholson] 12:03 am: but honestly, if you’re talking 100 ebooks, it’s not worth the hassle

[scottnicholson] 12:03 am: always better to resolve it clearly

[widdershins] 12:03 am: one thing about this side of the writing business… you have to develop a thick skin real quick… or you fade away

[scottnicholson] 12:03 am: look at your contract and see exactly what your options are

[Deena] 12:04 am: I don’t like to be blunt, but you might also look at your writing. If you’re not selling, maybe it’s not the publisher.

[scottnicholson] 12:04 am: be blunt Deena, it’s in short supply in this biz

[scottnicholson] 12:04 am: all of us need to be told to write better!

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:04 am: I thought I had a thick skin after all the rejections I got from publishers. Now I’ve gotten reviews with “top” ratings and haven’t sold much.

[scottnicholson] 12:05 am: sometimes it takes a while to find your audience

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:05 am: Maybe it’s the type of book – cozy

[scottnicholson] 12:05 am: I truly believe we all eventually find the audience we deserve

[Deena] 12:05 am: Read the reviews. Are they well-written? Do they articulate your good points? Do they sound like fangirls? Maybe they’re not attractive reviews, even if they’re rated well.

[scottnicholson] 12:05 am: it just might not be that big for any particular author

[Deena] 12:05 am: Which is sometimes a scary thought, Scott.

[scottnicholson] 12:05 am: 1,000,000 different titles were published last year!

[scottnicholson] 12:06 am: I didn’t even know there were that many people who could read…

[scottnicholson] 12:06 am: and with voice-recognition and one-button blog publishing as a book…

[scottnicholson] 12:06 am: well, you have to be your best

[zan] 12:07 am: I was once told by another author that most writers don’t have the stick-to-it-ivness to make it. I hope to prove him wrong in my case anyway. And I read about a book a day so that takes care of about 365 of them.

[scottnicholson] 12:07 am: lol well done Zan

[scottnicholson] 12:08 am: do you know anybody who DOESN’T think they can’t write a book?

[zan] 12:08 am: ya a few

[scottnicholson] 12:08 am: everybody I know wants to write one or have ME write it for them

[Deena] 12:08 am: If you talk to my mother, all her friends can write one. Most of them are poetry with charming illustrations.

[scottnicholson] 12:09 am: well, beats love letters to cats, I suppose!

[scottnicholson] 12:09 am: everybody has something to say

[Babs M] 12:09 am: lol

[scottnicholson] 12:09 am: as I said, you may not get a big audience though, but you deserve to say it

[scottnicholson] 12:09 am: saying “I’m published” is not a big deal anymore

[scottnicholson] 12:10 am: it won’t even get you laid in a coffee house anymore…

[Deena] 12:10 am: damn. there go my weekend plans.

[scottnicholson] 12:10 am: so what’s the point?

[spot_writes] 12:10 am: Will you write my book for me Scott? Hahaha…just kidding. No, really. Back off…it’s my book!!

[widdershins] 12:10 am: are we getting punchy now or what!!!

[scottnicholson] 12:10 am: do I get HALF the money after I write ALL the book? (that’s the standard offer)

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:11 am: Sue Grafton, the A,B,C author, said it takes 3 books to get going. I had a friend who didn’t read, couldn’t type, and expected to make lots of money on a book.

[spot_writes] 12:11 am: mmm…well it was my idea so you can have 25%

[scottnicholson] 12:11 am: I know several dyslexic authors…god bless’em

[zan] 12:11 am: The point is that when I tell their stories they get off my back Sometimes those characters can get real pushy

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:11 am: We might not make much money, but we have a heck of a lot of fun writing and meeting other authors online.

[spot_writes] 12:12 am: That is the spirit Jazzy!!

[scottnicholson] 12:12 am: yeah Zan, it’s all about the journey

[scottnicholson] 12:12 am: a good day of writing is better than a good day of bookselling, that’s for #$%^&* sure

[graham] 12:12 am: Thanks, you’re confirming what I have been saying on my blog: that ebooks will eventually destroy the publishing industry, including nearly all author incomes. Perhaps now I’ll start to think about how I will write for a free ebook world.

[scottnicholson] 12:12 am: Graham I have already thought about it

[scottnicholson] 12:13 am: sponsorships and product placement

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:13 am: Like I said before, it’s good I have other income – otherwise I’d be living in the park – and you can’t connect a computer and internet there.

[scottnicholson] 12:13 am: there’s a thing called “fictotizement” or something

[scottnicholson] 12:13 am: where the content is really a veiled advertisement

[widdershins] 12:13 am: @jazzy hang out near cafes and go wireless

[scottnicholson] 12:14 am: like the funny commercials people send viral

[scottnicholson] 12:14 am: if it’s entertainment in itself, it will work

[spot_writes] 12:14 am: that sounds very sci-fi and vaguely disturbing Scott

[Deena] 12:14 am: we could all just illustrate with lolcats.

[scottnicholson] 12:14 am: well it; already happens with ideas

[scottnicholson] 12:14 am: and propaganda

[spot_writes] 12:14 am: Like big business will take over the world. Oh wait…

[Babs M] 12:14 am: hahahaha

[widdershins] 12:14 am: I don’t know whether to feel excited or terrified about becoming published… its a great feeling!

[Rae ] 12:14 am: lol

[eBrock] 12:14 am: More book trailers!!!

[riversway] 12:14 am: @jazzy get someone to translate your contract so you can make a decision…sitting in confusion will eat you alive

[widdershins] 12:14 am: @Deena… lolcats?

[scottnicholson] 12:15 am: it’s the most libertarian time ever in the publishing business

[scottnicholson] 12:15 am: it used to depend on who owned the presses

[scottnicholson] 12:15 am: you had to write to please the church or king or lose your fingers

[Deena] 12:15 am: oh. Dear. Widder. I’m sorry I mentioned it. um, http://icanhascheezburger.com/

[Deena] 12:15 am: I have friends who are addicted to that site.

[scottnicholson] 12:15 am: then you had to write to an elite crowd because only the wealthy could read

[scottnicholson] 12:15 am: then books got cheap and maybe the 50s were the golden age

[scottnicholson] 12:16 am: that site sounds familiar…

[scottnicholson] 12:16 am: see, that’s why books will fade out

[Deena] 12:16 am: don’t go, Scott. Don’t go.

[scottnicholson] 12:16 am: this is the Twitter age

[Rae ] 12:16 am: What about the declining reading percentage? That can get scary. And the people who say “when will the movie version of your book come out so I can “see” it” Yikes.

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: what does it say about us when Facebook is too “slow”

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: more people write more than ever

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:17 am: This has been the most interesting and fun session. I’m glad I came. And I’ll fight against books fading out – right to the end.

[widdershins] 12:17 am: @Deena… just checked out the site…. LMFAO twice!

[spot_writes] 12:17 am: I know Rae it’s sad.

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: tweet, text, etc

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: pecking at little gizmos

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: but it’s different

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: books will evolve

[Rae ] 12:17 am: Yeah

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: reading will evolve

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: the whole 80-100k word novel will change

[Rae ] 12:18 am: Will shorter fiction become more popular in the near future?

[eBrock] 12:18 am: Maybe serial novels will make a return.

[widdershins] 12:18 am: Noooooo… Scott… I write 80 -100k novels… say it ain’t so

[scottnicholson] 12:18 am: sure I already sell more ebooks of my story collections than I ever did in paper

[scottnicholson] 12:18 am: because the editors say you have to

[Rae ] 12:18 am: That’s sort of a plus for me because I write on the shorter end

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:19 am: I love long books. I don’t want to give them up.

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: and they say that because they fill 48 books to a carton

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: has nothing to do with an “ideal”

[widdershins] 12:19 am: Ok I can live with serialising ‘em… because I like creating on a grand scale

[Deena] 12:19 am: I think there’ll be a market for everything.

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: it’s product and distribution concerns

[spot_writes] 12:19 am: I think kids aren’t encouraged to read anymore unless there’s something big like Harry Potter or Twilight. That was the best part of homeschooling my monsters, I got to pick what they read and we read a lot!!

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: I agree Deena it’s broadening

[Rae ] 12:19 am: I like that. Variety for everyone

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: novellas are in

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: anything works

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:19 am: Seems like a writer has to be 60% salesperson – grrr. I hate sales.

[Deena] 12:19 am: Think of the most popular fan fiction-130-250 k, serialized. People read long, they just read in chunks.

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: niche and cross-genre stuff can now find its audience

[Rae ] 12:19 am: Spot, that’s awesome

[scottnicholson] 12:20 am: no more “This is a great book but I don’t know where to PUT it?”

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:20 am: Rowling considers her Harry Potter series as one big book.

[spot_writes] 12:20 am: Well, at least they have a firm basis in literature. And will buy books. Lol.

[riversway] 12:21 am: me too, but if I really believe in it I can sell easily

[scottnicholson] 12:21 am: Twilight is fad fiction, not very well written

[riversway] 12:21 am: guess that’s believe ing in yourself

[scottnicholson] 12:21 am: but what can you do? Kids still read a lot more than adults do

[scottnicholson] 12:21 am: sales is not hard if you think of it this way:

[scottnicholson] 12:21 am: and I am trying it

scottnicholson] 12:22 am: instead of thinking of this faceless blob of people with wallets…

[scottnicholson] 12:22 am: visualize the people or one person your book will HELP

[scottnicholson] 12:22 am: or inspire or uplift or entertain or enrich

[scottnicholson] 12:22 am: then you are giving

[scottnicholson] 12:22 am: I tried it with Drummer Boy, just in my mind

[scottnicholson] 12:23 am: “Get it to that 13 yr old kid who will feel less like a misfit”

[scottnicholson] 12:23 am: boom my sales rank went from like 13,000 to 7,000 in a day

[scottnicholson] 12:23 am: I don’t think stuff like that is an accident

[scottnicholson] 12:23 am: we could all do with a little more service work

[spot_writes] 12:23 am: So it’s a karmic payback, Scott?

[widdershins] 12:24 am: beautifully said Scott

[scottnicholson] 12:24 am: give people slightly more value than you charge

[riversway] 12:24 am: thank you scott – that’s beautiful

[scottnicholson] 12:24 am: be incredibly humble

[spot_writes] 12:24 am: that is a lovely idea

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:24 am: Great idea, Scott. Thanks.

[scottnicholson] 12:24 am: it’s a miracle even ONE person wants to read our minds

[scottnicholson] 12:24 am: and if you have the talent and persistent, well, thank your god or higher power for it

[Rae ] 12:24 am: I like that

[riversway] 12:24 am: it’s been a real eye opener

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:25 am: I’m going to have to read your books.

[scottnicholson] 12:25 am: and if all else fails, even if you never get rich, you can sleep at night

[Deena] 12:25 am: He’s also a good writer.

[eBrock] 12:26 am: Scott, I agree. Fame & fortune would be nice, but knowing that someone (or a group of someones) is enjoying my work would be much more fulfilling.

[scottnicholson] 12:26 am: blush thewre are plenty better than me

[scottnicholson] 12:26 am: I just do my thing as best I can

[scottnicholson] 12:26 am: I tell you, these days, it’s not “How can I sell more books?” it’s “How can I be a better human?”

[scottnicholson] 12:27 am: eBrock, that’s interesting

[scottnicholson] 12:27 am: I recently told my wife, “I’m glad I’m not a bestselling writer”

[scottnicholson] 12:27 am: think of the worry, the stress, the expectations, the push to duplicate your previous success and formula

[scottnicholson] 12:27 am: and then having to go all over the place and sit on panels and hang out with industry folks

[scottnicholson] 12:28 am: I get exhausted thinking about it

[spot_writes] 12:28 am: I’ll just be happy if one person has to leave the light on when they go to bed. Is that wrong?

[Rae ] 12:28 am: That’s so true Scott.

[scottnicholson] 12:28 am: that’s right!

[Deena] 12:28 am: I think that’s pretty awesome, Spot.

[spot_writes] 12:28 am: Well, it means I did my job well.

[scottnicholson] 12:29 am: I tell you, I’ve never had as good of feeling in my career–awards or contracts or whatever–that matches nailing that last sentence

[riversway] 12:29 am: the widder says goodnight … she hit the wrong button on her keyboard and exploded

[spot_writes] 12:29 am: And if millions of people are leaving the light on, then I’m kind of a power drain. Can’t have that…

[scottnicholson] 12:29 am: or getting in that good writing session

[eBrock] 12:29 am: A loyal/enthusiastic group of readers is worth far more than all the accolades being a “star” brings.

[scottnicholson] 12:29 am: sweet, Stacey, always thinking of the environemnt!

[scottnicholson] 12:30 am: being a better human

[spot_writes] 12:30 am: Yes!

[scottnicholson] 12:30 am: well I am a taoist

[scottnicholson] 12:30 am: everything fades

[spot_writes] 12:30 am: In my own round about way.

[scottnicholson] 12:30 am: books go out of print

[scottnicholson] 12:30 am: money burns

[scottnicholson] 12:31 am: so enjoy the moment and wherever you are on your writing journey

[scottnicholson] 12:31 am: well any last questions?

[scottnicholson] 12:31 am: you can email me at hauntedcomputer At yahoo.com if you want

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:31 am: No, just thank you and goodnight.

[scottnicholson] 12:32 am: I have a bunch of articles at www.hauntedcomputer.com

[spot_writes] 12:32 am: You can friend him on facebook too!

[spot_writes] 12:32 am: Lol.

[Deena] 12:32 am: Scott, thank you so much. You’ve been a huge asset to the con. I don’t think it would have been nearly as good without you.

[scottnicholson] 12:32 am: and you can get a free writing manual at http://writegoodordie.blogspot.com

[spot_writes] 12:32 am: Thanks Scott. It’s been fun and informative.

[scottnicholson] 12:32 am: thanks Deena for all your work

[eBrock] 12:32 am: Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[Rae ] 12:32 am: This was such an awesome panel. I’m glad I caught a little bit of it. I’ll def be trolling the transcripts

[scottnicholson] 12:32 am: it’s been fun

[Rae ] 12:32 am: Thank you so much Scott

[riversway] 12:32 am: thank you Scott and Deena, it’s been a great

[scottnicholson] 12:33 am: be careful of my advice! Find out what works for YOU!

[Anna Kashina] 9:07 pm: Hi, everyone, I am Anna Kashina. I have been writing and publishing fantasy for over 10 years. My novel “Ivan and Marya”, upcoming from Drollerie Press, is a dark romantic fantasy based on Russian fairy tales. I love fairy tales, both as a reader and as a writer. I believe they are a great resource and a great tool to use in fiction.

[CindyLynn] 9:08 pm: And I am Cindy Lynn Speer, author of The Chocolatier’s Wife and many re-told fairy tales, all of which were collected in the recent anthology, due out any second now, “But Can You Let him Go?”

[CindyLynn] 9:08 pm: Anna, what draws you to fairy tales?

[Anna Kashina] 9:09 pm: And everyone here who has not read Chocolatier’s Wife, should do it as soon as possible!

[CindyLynn] 9:09 pm: *blush* Thank you.

[Anna Kashina] 9:09 pm: Back to the question: I believe fairy tales are a very powerful tool for fiction writing. Fairy tales combine authenticity of a culture with strong characters and entertaining story. Even a straight novelization of a fairy tale can be extremely entertaining, but one can also use them to create twists and unexpected turns.

[CindyLynn] 9:10 pm: I am seriously looking forward to Ivan and Marvya.

[Deena] 9:10 pm: Both of which stories will be out soon; my computer crash has caused all kinds of delays.

[Anna Kashina] 9:10 pm: Thanks, Cindy!

[CindyLynn] 9:10 pm: You’re right. And I think that understanding fairy tales is essential to understanding, not only the culture that the tale is from, but stories themselves.

[CindyLynn] 9:11 pm: The old stories are the building blocks of everything that’s written.

[Anna Kashina] 9:11 pm: Fairy tales are also attractive because the story is vaguely familiar, but the interpretation is unique to the author. When I pick up a book based on a re-told fairy tale, I have a sense of anticipation because there is an image in my head and I look forward to seeing how it would fit with what the author portrayed.

[CindyLynn] 9:11 pm: That’s true. And sometimes it really messes with your head. I havn’t, for example, been able to look at Snow White the same since Snow, Glass, Apples.

[Anna Kashina] 9:11 pm: I guess it builds up on your good point that they are at the base of all the other stories we write and read.

[CindyLynn] 9:12 pm: (That’s a short story by Neil Gaiman…it’s available online for free.)

[Anna Kashina] 9:12 pm: I have not read it.

[CindyLynn] 9:12 pm: It’s…you will find it interesting, I think. It’s just such a interesting look at the tale.

[Anna Kashina] 9:12 pm: I know movie examples are bad, but there is one which is a horror version of Snow White

[Anna Kashina] 9:13 pm: It also changed my way of seeing this fairy tale.

[Anna Kashina] 9:13 pm: Yes, I should definitely check out Neil Gaiman’s story!

[Anna Kashina] 9:13 pm: Fairy tales provide a great opportunity to explore a rich background and often discover some amazing historical underside to a well-known story.

[CindyLynn] 9:14 pm: And…I find it interesting how you can find the same tales across all cultures. The easiest one is Cinderella? (For me) Because you have tales where she’s a Native American girl who is pushed into the fire by her sisters…one where she’s a prostitute in egypt, one where she actually kills her step mother…

[CindyLynn] 9:14 pm: You’re right. Especially since fairy tales really give you a feel for the culture that they are from.

[CindyLynn] 9:15 pm: What are their values? What makes them afraid? What do they feel they need to be happy?

[Anna Kashina] 9:15 pm: I agree, Cinderella is a great example of a universal story, and one attractive to nearly everyone, from every culture.

[CindyLynn] 9:16 pm: Why diod you choose Russian Fairy tales for your book?

[Anna Kashina] 9:17 pm: I felt that Russian fairy tales have not been explored in fiction nearly enough…

[Anna Kashina] 9:17 pm: And the books that do use them make it some sort of a generic fantasy with Russian names.

[Anna Kashina] 9:18 pm: Russian culture is very different, it is a country between East and West and it blends the mythology of two different worlds in a very unique way.

[CindyLynn] 9:18 pm: How so?

[Anna Kashina] 9:19 pm: It is a Christian country, but not in a way any other country is. Some of what we call pagan cults are an organic part of the Russian Christianity and they go back straight to the worshipping of the forces of nature.

[CindyLynn] 9:19 pm: Stories set in Russia often seem to come with a strong mythic feel…it really is a different place.

[Anna Kashina] 9:20 pm: For example, my book centers around the Solstice celebration that in some form is still practiced today.

[CindyLynn] 9:20 pm: How does one “use” fairy tales in their writing?

[CindyLynn] 9:20 pm: How do you go about writing them?

[Anna Kashina] 9:20 pm: Well, once you choose a fairy tale, I start with a lot of research into the culture.

[Anna Kashina] 9:21 pm: I try to see which cultural and historical elements make this tale authentic to this country.

[CindyLynn] 9:21 pm: For me, I tend to be drawn to a story,…I read a lot of fairy tale books, like Perrault, the color fairy books…etc, and I find myself drawn to a story. For one of my short stories, I wondered what life would be like for a girl who, with every word she spoke, a diamond, pearl, or flower appeared and fell from her mouth. I just get fascinated with ideas.

[Anna Kashina] 9:22 pm: And then, I work on creating the characters that would be both authentic and universal, so that everyone can relate to them.

[CindyLynn] 9:22 pm: For another…and why I know a lot about Cinderlla stories, I wondered why there were *so* many Cinderella type stories. And forged a connection, there.

[Anna Kashina] 9:22 pm: So, how do you go about writing a fairy tale which spans cultures?

[CindyLynn] 9:22 pm: I think your point about authentic and universal characters is crucial.

[CindyLynn] 9:23 pm: I read every Cinderella type tale I could find. I decided that the link was the fairy God Mother character, and told it from her point of view.

[CindyLynn] 9:23 pm: Then I chose the ones I thought people would find the most interesting and tried to work from there.

[Anna Kashina] 9:23 pm: Yes, actually, another great point is about choosing a point of view.

[CindyLynn] 9:23 pm: I mimicked, or tried to…the candence and feel of fairy tales in the style of my writing without going over board.

[Anna Kashina] 9:24 pm: Do you ever try different points of view before settling on one?

[CindyLynn] 9:25 pm: I confess, in all the stories I’ve done so far I knew who the main character was before I started the story.

[Anna Kashina] 9:25 pm: In my story, my original POV was from the ‘evil’ side. The main heroine is in the enemy’s camp and she is viewed as ‘evil’ by the traditional fairy tales tellers.

[CindyLynn] 9:25 pm: I knew that I didn’t want to speak through the view of the woman who plays the Cinderella in the story, because I wanted to depart a little, to tell this story from another direction.

[CindyLynn] 9:25 pm: Oooh. That’s interesting!

[CindyLynn] 9:26 pm: Why did you change?

[Anna Kashina] 9:26 pm: I did not — I added another POV, that of the main ‘good guy’. They made a great contrast that carried the story in a very unusual way.

[CindyLynn] 9:27 pm: I like that a lot.

[Anna Kashina] 9:27 pm: The book still starts with her, but then they alternate, creating two sides to each event. I was very happy with the way it turned out.

[Anna Kashina] 9:27 pm: Thanks!

[Anna Kashina] 9:28 pm: So, how do you know which POV to choose? Fairy Godmother is very unconventional.

[CindyLynn] 9:28 pm: Are you going to write more in the Russian myth?

[Anna Kashina] 9:29 pm: I have another story planned, based on another famous fairy tale. It goes back to the roots of one side character in the current story. This character is bad in the current book, but will be the main good guy in the other.

[CindyLynn] 9:29 pm: It’s a hard question to answer. For her, it seemed like the best conclusion…there’s always some magical creature — a cow, a fish, a magical woman…someone who helps the poor Cinder girl out. She was the most interesting connection…and the most like to be immortal, so we could test out other Cinderella stories over the years.

[CindyLynn] 9:30 pm: That sounds very cool.

CindyLynn] 9:30 pm: So, what are some of your favorite resources?

[Anna Kashina] 9:31 pm: For Russian myth, I was actually researching from books.

[Anna Kashina] 9:31 pm: What about yours?

[CindyLynn] 9:31 pm: I love my Andrew Lang books…and I’m a big fan of http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/

[CindyLynn] 9:32 pm: I have tons and tons of books from all over the world, I just read until I get hit over the head.

[Anna Kashina] 9:32 pm: I didn’t know that one — I should check it out.

[Anna Kashina] 9:32 pm: So, what is the next fairy tale you plan to work on?

[CindyLynn] 9:33 pm: I’m not sure. I am almost done with my story about a Domovoi.

[CindyLynn] 9:33 pm: I am interested in the idea of Brownies, but they are not true fairy tales in themselves.

[Anna Kashina] 9:33 pm: Oh, wow. Russian, then?

[Anna Kashina] 9:33 pm: Domovoi is a tricky character to write about.

[CindyLynn] 9:34 pm: He/they are. Because they don’t speak.

[CindyLynn] 9:34 pm: They communicate through gestures, and they are easily made angry.

[Anna Kashina] 9:34 pm: And, I am not familiar with Brownies — shame, isn’t it?

[CindyLynn] 9:34 pm: Brownies are the Celtic equivalent to Domovoi.

[Anna Kashina] 9:34 pm: That sounds cool.

[CindyLynn] 9:34 pm: (And not at all)

[Anna Kashina] 9:35 pm: OK, got it.

[Anna Kashina] 9:35 pm: I can see a special challenge in writing about characters who cannot talk.

[Anna Kashina] 9:35 pm: It seems really neat.

[CindyLynn] 9:35 pm: The idea of the trickster helper is appealing to somone who lives in an old house where weird and unexplained things are always happening.

[CindyLynn] 9:35 pm: Do you have anything else you would like to tell our audience?

[Anna Kashina] 9:36 pm: One more small point on happy endings. To me they are one of the fairy tales’ appeal. But as an author, one also has the power to change them and that makes the story really unpredictable.

[CindyLynn] 9:37 pm: Yes. And the thing is…the scary thing…is sometimes you have to not be afraid to not give a happy ending…otherwise, your audience won’t beleive the tension. “Oh, Cindy! Cindy NEVER kills off a character, so…YAWN. Who cares if he’s hanging off a building by one hand?”

[Anna Kashina] 9:38 pm: Yep, the endings are a great way not to play by the rules and make the story really interesting.

[CindyLynn] 9:38 pm: Well, I don’t have any other points, so, if you’d like, we can open the floor for questions?

[Marva] 9:39 pm: What is the difference between fairy tale and folklore?

[CindyLynn] 9:40 pm: I think that fairy tales are more…story-like. They are a tale with a beginning, middle in and end. This is not *always* so with folklore.

[CindyLynn] 9:40 pm: Folklore can encompass supersititons, explanations, beliefs.

[Anna Kashina] 9:40 pm: I believe fairy tales are part of folklore, which is the most entertaining — the stories created to entertain based on folklore.

[CindyLynn] 9:41 pm: Anna, that made me go ooooh.

[Anna Kashina] 9:41 pm: Sorry, that came out confusing. Folklore encompasses fairy tales and other folk beliefs.

[Frances2] 9:41 pm: Is it possible to come up with a completely new fairy tale? (by new I mean that is not a retelling or new version of a traditional tale) If so, what are the elements that you think makes a story a fairy tale as opposed to simply another fantasy story?

[CindyLynn] 9:42 pm: I dont know that it is possible…because I don’t think we are in the type of culture that would give us the ability to make it into a fairy tale.

[Anna Kashina] 9:42 pm: Frances: I think if you come up with a new one, it has to be culturally authentic and have the traditional elements of a typical fairy tale.

[CindyLynn] 9:42 pm: Fairy tales were part of an oral story tradition, they were passed down as cautionary tales, as comfort tales.

[CindyLynn] 9:43 pm: That’s such a hard qiuestion, lol. Good one, though.

[PeachesNCream] 9:43 pm: The only thing I know about Brownies are from the movie Willow *snort* and they talked! My next project is a Silkie story…not sure if they fall under fairy tales or myths *g*…and because those stories rarely end happy I’m making sure my story does.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:44 pm: Are your stories immediately recognizable as fairy tales, or are they simply based on them? I have a partially created work that is based on Cinderella, but is probably an urban fantasy. I took a class some time ago in creating stories from fairy tales. I don’t have the ending yet but I do think my “Cinderella” will come out the winner.

[CindyLynn] 9:45 pm: Tw of mine are, one of mine less so because I used the elements of Blackbeard but set in a slightly different world.

[Anna Kashina] 9:45 pm: I think the story does not have to be immediately recognazible as fairy tale, but it has to be recognizable some way into the book.

[CindyLynn] 9:46 pm: I think there have to be enough simularities, definitely.

[CindyLynn] 9:47 pm: They key elements that make that fairy a particular fairy tale (for example, a fancy pair of shoes) have to be there, or the reader will be disapointed.

[Anna Kashina] 9:47 pm: Sorry, talking about our stories in particular — mine is more or less recognizable up front, I believe, but it does not start with anything resembling ‘once upon a time’, but with straight action.

[Frances2] 9:47 pm: You mention happy endings, but originally, didn’t a lot of fairy tales end less than happily for their protagonists? At least in the non-americanized, non-Disney versions?

[CindyLynn] 9:47 pm: This is often very true. That’s a good point.

[CindyLynn] 9:48 pm: I can think of several that do not have happy endings, but won’t name them for fear of spoilers.

[Anna Kashina] 9:48 pm: But I think a reader has to know a happy ending is possible.

[CindyLynn] 9:48 pm: fairy tales have a couple of categories…the one that tells us dragons can be fought and defeated, and the ones that warn us about how we act in the world, and the consequences.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:51 pm: [Editor's Note: Technical difficulties prevented her from logging in sooner] I’ll be brief, since I’m sure you’ve all heard some really great stuff already.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:51 pm: My name’s Isabelle. I write multi-genre romance, but have recently veered into YA fantasy based heavily on myth, fairytale and legend.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:52 pm: My first book, Zerah’s Chosen, is the first in a three book series called the Guardian Circle series, which surrounds the lives of six elemental children blessed (or some would say cursed) by their gods to serve their nation and keep the elements in harmony.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:53 pm: Meanwhile, they’re supposed to be devoid of personal relationships, etc. I used a lot of Greek, Indian, and Biblical mythology.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:53 pm: Fairy tales are fantastic because of their familiar quality.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:53 pm: There’s a very universal feel to fairy tales, something that transcends time and gender and social status.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:54 pm: The best possible way to write in fairy tales is to read them. Read the originals, read the rewrites, read the fresh, new fairy tales.

[riversway] 9:54 pm: what is the structure that makes a fairy tale?

[CindyLynn] 9:56 pm: There are a lot of classes of fairy tale and those structures differe a little. (I like the Aarne-Thompson scale)

[CindyLynn] 9:57 pm: The structure also differs between cultures.

[Anna Kashina] 9:57 pm: @riversway: in a general sense, the structure is similar to any other adventure story. Introducing a character and a conflict, facing the conflict, and resolving it. Structure-wise, fairy tales are the grandparents of all adventure books.

[CindyLynn] 9:57 pm: The basic structure is that the character runs into a difficulty that a magical being that is not a God helps them over come. There is usually a trial of some sort.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:58 pm: This is a fantastic breakdown of the ATU scale Cindy is talking about. http://oaks.nvg.org/folktale-types.html

[Anna Kashina] 9:58 pm: Right, Cindy: there have to be magical beings, of course.

[zan] 9:58 pm: I think the ending is what made them either cautionary tales or comfort tales

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:59 pm: Basically, most fairytales can be placed in categories. Animal tales, tales of magic, religious tales, tales of evil entities like devils, ogres, etc.

Isabelle Santiago] 9:59 pm: People making stupid decision tales. LOL Those are great. Madness always ensues.

[spot_writes] 10:00 pm: Weren’t the Grimms Brothers fairy tales just that? Grim? I mean some of those are definitely not for children. That was the cautionary tale, right? I think Gary said it best the other night when he talked about the “underlying vindictiveness of fairy tales”.

[Anna Kashina] 10:01 pm: Fairy tales were never for children. The most entertaining ones were adapted for children. To my knowledge, Grimm Brothers wrote down what they heard in villages, they did not make up these stories. [Editor's Note: The Grimm Brothers did heavily edit the stories for public consumption. They were not just straightforward recordings of oral tales.]

[CindyLynn] 10:01 pm: Yes, they were. They were partially the product of their culture, too. The lives of the people of that time, when they were writing, were also very bitter, so there’s a mirror into the values of the people that the Grimm Brothers knew and dealt with.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:01 pm: Spot, for a long time fairytales were meant to act as fables, tell some sort of moral story, so they were not necessarily the overly sugary stories of today.

[Anna Kashina] 10:01 pm: When the life was cruel, the fairy tales were cruel too.

[Frances2] 10:02 pm: @Isabelle mentioned “fresh, new fairytales” and my ears perked up… can you speak to that a little?

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:03 pm: Sure, Frances. I’ve found that new authors, particularly in the YA fantasy field, are creating some interesting, fresh fairytale type stories, in tone and magic and feel.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:04 pm: They veer from the typical edgy fare and play out in a more languid, musical way, often involving dragons or spells or magic.

[Deena] 10:04 pm: If you’d like an example of new and re-told fairy tales, a good choice is Needles & Bones, from DP. That’s not YA, though. Don’t let your children read it.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:05 pm: Off the top of my head, I can think of Firelight, which is a new book coming out soon. Can’t remember the author. [Editor's Note: Sophie Jordan, release date of September 2010]

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:06 pm: I felt Graceling had a bit of an epic, fairytale feel to it, once it got past the eighth chapter or so.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:07 pm: Wicked Lovely was a bit of a spin on fae lore and ice queen myth… but that first chapter had fairytale all over it.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:07 pm: It takes a little bit of looking, but you’d be amazed what you find.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:07 pm: I also have a VERY soft spot for creative retellings. Like Ember by Bettie Sharpe (offered for free on her website)

[zan] 10:09 pm: Isabelle, the others told us what fairy tales they were using right now, how about you?

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:09 pm: I’m currently working on a hybrid of original fairytale and ice queen myth.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:10 pm: With other fairy tale references thrown in. Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:10 pm: Brief blurbage: A princess meant to bring her royal household back to power falls in love with her greatest rival and embarks on a journey of passion and self-discovery only to discover their epic love can destroy her.

[zan] 10:11 pm: sounds cool, literally

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:11 pm: Why thank you.

[CindyLynn] 10:12 pm: Very cool!

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:12 pm: Might I know what Cindy and Anna are working on? I’d love to know!

[CindyLynn] 10:13 pm: I’m working on a Domovoi story, because I love the idea of the house elf that’s sort of…the trickster helper type?

[CindyLynn] 10:13 pm: Because they have such strong rules to follow.

[CindyLynn] 10:13 pm: Anna, I think she said she was working on a sequel to her book, Ivan and Marya?

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:13 pm: Oh, nice!

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:14 pm: Cindy knows I’m a big fan. I absolutely loved Chocolatier’s Wife.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:14 pm: Anna, I’m very thrilled to read Ivan and Marya. Its exciting to hear Russian folklore.

[zan] 10:15 pm: I enjoyed this and learned something too “bonus”

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:16 pm: Yay! That’s the goal, Zan.

[PeachesNCream] 10:17 pm: Awesome panel…thank you for all the info

[CindyLynn] 10:17 pm: Thank you everyone, for coming and being so awesome.

[Frances2] 10:17 pm: Really great panel! so fascinating. Thank you!

[spot_writes] 10:18 pm: Thanks ladies, it really was interesting and informative!