[Frances] 8:06 pm: Hi everyone!

[Rae] 8:07 pm: LOL

[Deena] 8:07 pm: If you haven’t filled out the feedback survey, will you do it soon? The answer spaces are shorter than I thought they’d be, so if you’re very long-winded it will cut you off, but it will at least give us an idea of what went well [or didn't].

[riversway] 8:07 pm: Good start Frances!

[PeachesNCream] 8:07 pm: You held it all together beautifully Deena!!

[Kris M] 8:07 pm: Deena — no it wouldn’t have worked WITHOUT YOU!!!:awe: I was really impressed with the whole conference. It went smoothly (mostly) and we had some great panels..

[Marva] 8:07 pm: I’d like to thank Drollerie and all the panelists. I’ve learned a lot and wish I could have come to more panels. There are the transcripts, though.

[spot_writes] 8:07 pm: It’s been great. I’d like to thank all the published authors, they’ve all been very down to earth, and friendly, and helpful.

[widdershins] 8:07 pm: oh no! I long-winded myself out of existence!

[LynneB] 8:07 pm: Extremely well organized which made it such a pleasure!

[Rae] 8:07 pm: This was so awesome, Deena! Very invaluable and informative.

[Deena] 8:07 pm: I’m glad you guys have had a great time.

[barblucas] 8:08 pm: Deena, I agree with folks. Everything ran so smoothly, much was learned, and it was great fun.

[Deena] 8:08 pm: This is the link to the feedback survey if you haven’t done it yet: http://coyotecon.com/general/your-feedback/

[zan] 8:08 pm: I have gone to a couple of live cons and one online con before this and I have to say this was one of the best I have been to. Maybe because you all write what I love to read and write.

[PeachesNCream] 8:08 pm: My hubby is ready for it to be over but I’m not

[Anna Kashina ] 8:08 pm: Deena, I lost connection for a moment, but I wanted to join the others in saying how great you were!

[spot_writes] 8:08 pm: haha peaches, my hubby agrees.

[Deena] 8:08 pm: My kids are soooo ready for it to be over.

[riversway] 8:08 pm: I agree with kris , I was really impressed with the panelists, I thought you all did a wonderful job…saying ‘wonderfule panel, great panel’ never seemd enough

[Kris M] 8:08 pm: @Peaches — mine too:D

[Deena] 8:08 pm: Thanks, Anna!

[Marva] 8:08 pm: I hustled my BBQ guest away so I could make this last session.

[Anna Kashina] 8:09 pm: This was the coolest idea, and it worked so well, all thanks to you!

[widdershins] 8:09 pm: meh… kids… what do they know!

[spot_writes] 8:09 pm: oh Marva, that’s funny

Deena] 8:09 pm: Oh, Marva, that was sweet. Well, I think so. Your guest might not.

kris M] 8:09 pm: I’ve been milking it all month – he was like — its not on tomorrow too is it??? I almost said yes just to torture hm

Marva] 8:09 pm:

Rae] 8:09 pm: I agree with Zan. I love that the focus was spec fiction and cultural diversity in fiction. I think I may be going through con withdrawals in the next weekend or so lol

widdershins] 8:09 pm: @kris…. you go girl!

Frances2] 8:09 pm: I think the con was well organized, planned and executed, but the people involved made it above and beyond wonderful.

PeachesNCream] 8:09 pm: LOL @ Kris…me too

Marva] 8:09 pm: Meant guestS.

LynneB] 8:09 pm: The presenters were all very well informed and kept to their topics with practical information. It was all much more valuable than I could have anticipated

Deena] 8:09 pm: We’re going to start a writing group, there’ll be an email going out later in the week to describe it and let you guys know what we’ll be doing.

Anna Kashina] 8:10 pm: Yes, I was thinking about the withdrawal… Can we do it every weekend?:)

Deena] 8:10 pm: Guests… lol, Marva.

Deena] 8:10 pm: Anna, if I had the stamina…

spot_writes] 8:10 pm: How about one weekend a month? One weekend every two months?

Anna Kashina] 8:10 pm: Deena, I can only imagine…

barblucas] 8:10 pm: I agree. I’m not sure what I’ll do with June weekends. Well, actually, I do. I need to finish a novel.

Marva] 8:10 pm: That rhymes.

Rae] 8:10 pm: Ooh! That would be awesome. I love that idea! Is it going to be sent out to the email addies we have signed up here, or is there a separate mailing list??

Deena] 8:11 pm: We’ll be doing something one weekend a month.

Deena] 8:11 pm: Rae, to the email address you signed up with here.

riversway] 8:11 pm: if I didn’t have the Evil 9-5 jobs

spot_writes] 8:11 pm: Sweet!

barblucas] 8:11 pm: Nice!

Rae] 8:11 pm: Okay cool

zan] 8:11 pm: :clap:yah

Amber Stults] 8:11 pm: I thought it was nice to have all of the events spread out over the month. I didn’t have to hide away from my family all week to get things done to participate in the chats.

kris M ] 8:11 pm: I know.. I learned a lot about different genres which was probably what I liked best — the exposure to things I haven’t read or even heard of before…. my hubby thought ‘transformative sex’ was sex with transformers – like the movie LOL

spot_writes] 8:11 pm: I think, other than the being really informative, it also helped me to focus and take myself more seriously.

Deena] 8:11 pm: I’m thinking one session to catch up with each other and learn something new would be good.

Deena] 8:11 pm: oh, good, Spot!

PeachesNCream] 8:12 pm: Same here Amber!

Rae] 8:12 pm: LOL Kris

Deena] 8:12 pm: oh, goodness, Kris! That would be… um… difficult.

widdershins] 8:12 pm: @Kris…. you REALLY need to punish him for that!

Amber Stults] 8:12 pm: I agree, Spot.

spot_writes] 8:12 pm: @Kris, that’s too funny. My hubby asked “exactly what kind of convention is this??

barblucas] 8:12 pm: @ Kris I’ve read some of those stories online.

PeachesNCream] 8:13 pm: LOL Kris…mine was reading over my shoulder earlier during the erotic one

kris M ] 8:13 pm: I already did this week – we had our 15th anniversary onthe 20th and my wedding band mysteriously lost a diamond chip — one of the cats probably ate it — it’s at the jewelers so I’m single all week!!!! yahoo

riversway] 8:13 pm: it’s given me a jump start again…greatly appreciated…I get kinda bitchy doing the earthy 9-5 thing without the creativity , burns you out that life

Deena] 8:13 pm: I was surprised at how much it helped me. It was so good for me to get to meet all of you, and to learn some things in the sessions, and to have a “good excuse” to write instead of just editing.

Deena] 8:13 pm: Peaches! Not during the weeping woman cave, I hope!

Deena] 8:14 pm: rivers, yes, being “normal” 9-5 is a drain.

Anna Kashina] 8:14 pm: Hi, everyone, sorry, I keep having connection problems today.

Rae] 8:14 pm: Hear hear. I really need to get back to finishing up some works in progress! I’ve been off my game a bit lately. This con helped me get more ideas and a focus together.

Deena] 8:14 pm: Anna, I’m sorry you’re having connection problems.

PeachesNCream] 8:14 pm: LOL no….but he saw all that Gregar stuff

spot_writes] 8:14 pm: I would think that it probably will net you a bunch more submissions too, Deena. Whether that’s good or bad though, I can’t say…

Deena] 8:14 pm: oh! hee

barblucas] 8:15 pm: That’s the mark of a good con: when you come out of it feeling recharged and ready to hit the keyboard and create.

Deena] 8:15 pm: Spot, that’s a good thing. We’ll have a new submissions process soon, so hopefully it will be painless for everyone.

[Marva] 8:15 pm: I’m envisioning a doorway with a bunch of writers shoving mss at Deena screaming ME ME
ME!
[kris M] 8:15 pm: I hope all of us from the conference — automatically make it OUT OF THE SLUSH PILE at DP when we submit — just kidding…

[widdershins] 8:15 pm: I’m not the same writer I was before this month

[kris M] 8:15 pm: @widder — ditto

[riversway] 8:15 pm: me neither

[spot_writes] 8:15 pm: Well, it should have helped to get DP’s name out. I know alot of us blasted it about on twitter & facebook.

[Rae ] 8:15 pm: Ooh yay!

[spot_writes] 8:16 pm: @widder, me neither!

[zan] 8:16 pm: I heard about it on Realm of Fantasy

[Deena] 8:16 pm: Spot, I was just thinking about that today. A very nice side benefit. It wasn’t intended, but it did make me feel encouraged.

[kris M] 8:16 pm: when I came I was a solid contemp romance — now I’m thinking about fairies and monsters and stuff…

[Rae ] 8:16 pm: Deena, you’ll definitely be hearing from me in the near future! Lol It would be awesome to be a DP author.

[Amber Stults] 8:16 pm: I’m sure the places that particpated in the pitch sessions will be busy too.

[Deena] 8:16 pm: Weren’t they great? All of those editors were so kind and down to earth. It was wonderful to meet them.

[Rae ] 8:17 pm: Can’t get too many faires

[Rae ] 8:17 pm: OOps! *fairies rather lol

[spot_writes] 8:17 pm: I didn’t make a single pitch session…

[Deena] 8:17 pm: That’s okay spot, I want you all to myself.

[zan] 8:17 pm: I had a good time at the two I went to and yes they were down to earth and approachable

[kris M] 8:17 pm: it’s nice to settle down and remember that ‘everyone’ is really just normal people — no matter how ‘famous’ or ‘published’ they are — we’re all just common folk…

[spot_writes] 8:17 pm: Thanks Deena!

[Deena] 8:17 pm: Oh, and Greg asked if you could tell him more about what you like on his website–it’s not an ego stroking thing at all, nooo, he just wants to know what he can do better.

[widdershins] 8:18 pm: @Kris… and we don’t battle our inner dragons alone anymore

[spot_writes] 8:18 pm: Sure Deena, I’d be happy too.

[Deena] 8:18 pm: Which I should probably plug. He calls it “with intent to commit horror”

[Amber Stults] 8:18 pm: I didn’t think I had anything ready for any of the editors in the pitch sessions but I thought it was nice they were able to get out and meet people on on one.

[Deena] 8:18 pm: and it’s at http://theundeadrat.com

[Deena] 8:18 pm: So, when/if you guys write horror and get it published, he’ll talk about you there!

[kris M] 8:19 pm: oh yeah — i’m still working on that yahoo group that we talked about in ‘creating while disabled’ — so expect emails…

[spot_writes] 8:19 pm: And it’s a really great newsletter, he lets you know what’s nominated for what award, what wins and does reviews

[Deena] 8:19 pm: Oh, good, thanks Kris!

[spot_writes] 8:19 pm: oh kris, I want in on that, I have fibro and I just found out I’m severely vitamin d deficient

[Deena] 8:19 pm: Once you get it set up, let me know and I’ll add it to the email going out to everyone.

[Deena] 8:20 pm: Spot! They’ve begun discovering a lot of fibro patients with that problem. Once you get the deficiency under control, the pain will be much less severe. I was too, and man it made a huge difference.

[kris M] 8:20 pm: ok Deena — it will be open to any physical and/or mental disabled — then again all authors are slightly mentally disabled right!!!

[spot_writes] 8:20 pm: Great, I start the monster doses tomorrow

[Deena] 8:20 pm: I do think they might be, kris!

[LynneB] 8:20 pm: Deena will there be a regular e-mail like monthly on catch up news, etc.?

[Deena] 8:20 pm: Be sure to get your calcium, and if you can’t take the pills, eat Tums.

[spot_writes] 8:21 pm: I told my son all artists are crazy, and we writers are the worst of the lot…

[Deena] 8:21 pm: For those who sign up, yes, Lynne. The first email will be to give you the option and will go out to everyone.

[Anna Kashina] 8:21 pm: OK, my connection seems to be fixed, but I am behind on the discussion, sorry.

[spot_writes] 8:21 pm: My daughter says calcium pills are awful

[Amber Stults] 8:21 pm: Has there been any thoughts towards a Coyote Con in 2011?

[Deena] 8:21 pm: That’s okay, Anna. I’m glad you’re steady on your electronic pins now.

[widdershins] 8:21 pm: @Anna… its a free-for-all… Tums were mentioned a moment ago!

[Deena] 8:21 pm: Amber, oh yes, we’ll definitely be having one next year.

[Anna Kashina] 8:21 pm: For the earlier topic, I wanted to say that pitch sessions were great and some people from my workshop were thrilled about a chance to pitch to Deena.

[Deena] 8:22 pm: spot, calcium pills are truly horrendous. My pharmacist told me to just take tums.

[Deena] 8:22 pm: Great, Anna!

[kris M] 8:22 pm: one of my fav quotes is ‘writing is the act of frustrating oneself with incessant typing in the hopes of somebody actually reading it some day’ LOL

[spot_writes] 8:22 pm: I will try that then. Thanks Deena!

[Deena] 8:22 pm: hee. Cool quote, Kris.

[spot_writes] 8:22 pm: haha Kris!

[zan] 8:22 pm: Kris who said that?

[Deena] 8:22 pm: Let me know how it goes, Spot. The pain in my legs is pretty much gone since I got the vitamin D under control.

[kris M] 8:23 pm: I’m not sure – I’d have to look it up.. I have a bunch of quotes like that which I collect

[spot_writes] 8:23 pm: Oh I will for sure!

[Deena] 8:23 pm: In a few days, I’ll be putting up some stuff about next year, ideas for sessions and so on, and give you guys room to weigh in.

[riversway] 8:23 pm: my favourite is ‘Perfection is a flawed concept’ helps keep it real

[kris M] 8:23 pm: another one is ‘write from your heart, write from your soul, make the best of your talent, and don’t ever let it go, not for anything’ — again don’t know who said it..

[Deena] 8:24 pm: May 1, 2011 is on a Sunday, and we’ll have an intro session that day, and I think we’ll skip memorial day weekend next year.

[spot_writes] 8:24 pm: I love “patience is a virtue” of course I always add “one I don’t posess”.

[Frances2] 8:24 pm: My fave is Dorothy Parker’s “I hate writing, I love having written.”

[Rae ] 8:24 pm: I like that one

[spot_writes] 8:24 pm: That’s a good one Frances.

[kris M] 8:24 pm: I tell my hubby that and he says ‘he’s not virtuous’!!!

[Deena] 8:24 pm: So next year it will be a 21 day conference.

[Rae ] 8:24 pm: These are some good writing quotes!

[zan] 8:24 pm: But I love the writing it is the rewriting I hate

[Anna Kashina] 8:25 pm: I think next year we’ll be more proficient and may not need an extra moderator in addition to the panelists.

[Deena] 8:25 pm: I hate rewriting too, Zan.

[LynneB] 8:25 pm: Yahoo!!! Can’t wait!

[Marva] 8:25 pm: @zan Hear Hear!

[Deena] 8:25 pm: Anna, that’s good, but we’ll also probably have more volunteers.

[barblucas] 8:25 pm: @ Frances I love that one too.

[spot_writes] 8:25 pm: I hate right before I start writing, I get like stage fright, only for writers. Once I get started I’m fine.

[riversway] 8:25 pm: @spot – I used to think that…. ..but then I realized I just moving faster and multi task more than most people…so doesn’t make me impatience…I’m just a few steps ahead of the rest

[Anna Kashina] 8:25 pm: This should reduce some load on you, Deena. I know that by the end of it I was pretty comfortable moderating my own session.

[kris M] 8:25 pm: so can we sign up now for those ‘special session’ tickets yet???

[Deena] 8:25 pm: I can so easily find 100 other things I ought to be doing than writing.

[zan] 8:25 pm: I took a class on writing it once but for some reason it didn’t stick sigh

[Deena] 8:25 pm: Thanks, Anna. That’s good to hear.

[Deena] 8:26 pm: Hee, Kris!

[Rae ] 8:26 pm: I once heard an author say that if you’re a planner, you hate rewriting but love writing but if you’re a pantser, you hate writing but love rewriting. I wonder if that’s true across the board. Hmm

[widdershins] 8:26 pm: Another gem from Dorothy Parker….”All I need is room enough to lay a hat and a few friends”

[Deena] 8:26 pm: I’m not sure what we’ll do about special sessions next year, though I hope we’ll have audio/video down then.

[Rae ] 8:26 pm: Ooh!

[Deena] 8:26 pm: I’m a pantser, Rae, so I think that’s backwards.

[Anna Kashina] 8:27 pm: But yes, next year we’ll definitely have more volunteers. I hope the chat can still hold everyone.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:27 pm: Not true in my case about rewriting. I’m a pantzer and I hate rewriting.

[spot_writes] 8:27 pm: Would it be possible to have some sessions in the morning next year. iI really am the most alert then. And I know for those like Tina, in Ireland, the timing would be better.

[Amber Stults] 8:27 pm: That sounds like me, Rae. Funny thing.. I’m a planner except when I write. I’m a
planner/pantser hybrid.

[Deena] 8:27 pm: Well, next year we’ll also, hopefully, have better chat software.

[kris M] 8:27 pm: is there a limit on the chat size???

[Rae ] 8:27 pm: Maybe it’d be switched? Although I’m a pantser and love rewriting. I guess it’s based on the individual then. Lol
[Anna Kashina] 8:27 pm: Sorry, I am always behind because I have to restart my modem every few minutes. I am using wireless for the first time.

[Deena] 8:27 pm: Spot, yes, we will. It’ll be better for other parts of the world.

[Marva] 8:27 pm: Planner here so I hate rewriting. Once should be enough, right?

[Deena] 8:28 pm: Anna, the wireless is making you restart every few minutes?

[spot_writes] 8:28 pm: wait! What’s a pantser??

[kris M] 8:28 pm: yeah earlier is good idea — always on my 2nd pot of coffee by the 11 pm classes…

[Deena] 8:28 pm: Kris, yes, there’s a limit, but we never reached it. I have a feeling it might have not been reached because it started kicking people out before it got close.

[Rae ] 8:28 pm: You write “by the seat of your pants”. You don’t plan an outline beforehand. Just dive on in

[Anna Kashina] 8:28 pm: Deena, it is some local glitch. I may need to restart my computer or something, but then I’ll miss too much.

[spot_writes] 8:28 pm: Ah. I usually make a plan, then totally disregard it. So I guess I’m a hybrid.

[Anna Kashina] 8:28 pm: Just don’t mind me popping in and out.

[Rae ] 8:28 pm: Ooh a rare breed?

[zan] 8:28 pm: I am definaltely a pantser

[Deena] 8:29 pm: I’m trying to learn to use notecards. I need to be able to plot better.

[widdershins] 8:29 pm: I believe in the diagonal theory of writing… one step forwards and one sideways

[Deena] 8:29 pm: No worries, Anna.

[spot_writes] 8:29 pm: @Rae, that’s me. I’m a planner pants.

[Rae ] 8:29 pm: Lol

[Marva] 8:29 pm: One step forward, two steps back.

[riversway] 8:29 pm: well I’m both a pantzer and planner, I dive in to the deep end then usuallly have to plan to make it work …

[widdershins] 8:29 pm: round and round… dosey doe

[Rae ] 8:29 pm: Sounds about right!

[Rae ] 8:29 pm: Spot, I like that. Planner pants hehe

[PeachesNCream] 8:29 pm: I’m both…different stories call for different methods

[Deena] 8:29 pm: that sounds like a planner pants to me, River.

[Frances2] 8:30 pm: Im a pantser, but writing the last book in a trilogy has forced me to try the other side for a stint.

[zan] 8:30 pm: Even if I did the charactors would revolte oh yeah they do anyway. Most of my stories end up with a sneaky charactor who just jumps in on me.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:30 pm: I do an outline of sorts for a few chapters after I’ve done several chapters, but don’t always follow it. I don’t know what that makes me.

[Amber Stults] 8:30 pm: I start off with an outline or bullet points and then go off in whatever direction feels right.

[Deena] 8:30 pm: I think, Jazzy, it makes you unique… like the rest of us.

[Rae ] 8:30 pm: Don’t you love that, Zan? They just want to take over the story and lead away. Psh. Who do those characters think they are? Lol

[spot_writes] 8:30 pm: @zan, that totally happened to me last night. Now I’m left with a story I love but no idea where to market it.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:30 pm: Sometimes a character will refuse to do what I ask. I’ve also had ‘walk-on’ characters that never left.

[barblucas] 8:30 pm: I usually start with a scene, and just let things unfold from there.

[riversway] 8:30 pm: writer’s are Wierd! I’m proud to one of you

[widdershins] 8:31 pm: forget about the pants… go commando!

[Anna Kashina] 8:31 pm: I usually write 100 pages or so, then go back and write an outline. If I write one beforehand (which happens) it almost never holds to the 100 pages.

[spot_writes] 8:31 pm: It was supposed to be a dark horror piece and it ended up being a humorous horror.

[barblucas] 8:31 pm: @widder LOL!

[Deena] 8:31 pm: (Spot, you might like this place I’ve heard of called DP. They have a great humorous horror novel already)

[LynneB] 8:31 pm: So which one of you will be leading the session on how to plan your story for next year’s con?

[Rae ] 8:31 pm: Hehe

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:31 pm: Humorous horror? What is the name? I’d like to read it.

[zan] 8:32 pm: Thats Ok I wrote what I thought was a dragon love story and my husband says it is a vindictive revenge story go figure

[kris M] 8:32 pm: ditto jazzy

[spot_writes] 8:32 pm: @Deena…hehe. It’s only a short story. Does that work for DP?

[PeachesNCream] 8:32 pm: I vote for Kait Nolan…she changed herself from a pantser to plotter

[Deena] 8:32 pm: Jazzy, The Revenant Road by Michael Boatman. If you’re put off by excess profanity, you won’t like it, but otherwise, it’s great.

[spot_writes] 8:32 pm: It’s called “The Nightmare Guardian”. I sent it to Tina, my beta reader and she loved it.

[Deena] 8:32 pm: Spot, actually, yes. We’ve always accepted short stories, but we’re going to start pushing them harder to take advantage of people reading on the fly. We’re going to open a new bookstore just for short works soon.

[spot_writes] 8:33 pm: @zan, that’s funny!

[Deena] 8:33 pm: ooh, thanks Peaches. I’ll remember that.

[Frances2] 8:33 pm: reprints yay or nay @ Deena?

[Marva] 8:33 pm: Ah, a place to send my shorts. Um, stories that is.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:33 pm: What about 10,000 word shapeshifter novellas?

[Deena] 8:33 pm: Frances, it depends on the story.

[Deena] 8:33 pm: Jazzy, yes. We take those.

[widdershins] 8:33 pm: @MArva LOL

[spot_writes] 8:33 pm: I think I love you Deena. I love writing shorts.

[Rae ] 8:33 pm: Deena, DP is strictly spec fic, correct?

[Deena] 8:34 pm: We take 5k and up.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:34 pm: Good, I’ll start rewriting and polishing them. I’ve got 5.

[Deena] 8:34 pm: Rae, yes. It doesn’t have to be hugely overt, but there has to be something extra-normal about it.

[Rae ] 8:34 pm: Okie dokie.

[Deena] 8:34 pm: You don’t write spec fic do you Rae?

[Deena] 8:35 pm: Man, there are times I wish I could publish everything.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:35 pm: Does anybody here work on more than one WIP at a time and in different genres?

[Rae ] 8:35 pm: I have a hybrid romantic noir mystery that I have no idea what the heck to do with lol. Oh I do! I mainly write SF and Fantasy but the occasional contemp

[zan] 8:35 pm: I agree somewhere to submit my short stuff too oh yeah I’m 5′ tall so that would include me wouldn’t it.

[Marva] 8:35 pm: @deena we all wish the same thing.

[riversway] 8:35 pm: yes

[Frances2] 8:35 pm: @Deena we wish you could too! LOL

[barblucas] 8:35 pm: @jazzy I do.

[Deena] 8:35 pm: awesome, Rae.

[Deena] 8:35 pm: Anna, still with us?

[spot_writes] 8:35 pm: @Jazzy, um I work on more than one at a time, but I think most of mine are the same genre.

[Amber Stults] 8:35 pm: @jazzy I do.

[Rae ] 8:35 pm: Yeah it keeps me on my toes

[widdershins] 8:35 pm: @Jaz… only in the first draft stage… after that I need to focus on one

[zan] 8:36 pm: Yes I wrote 22 drabbles this month 10 chapters on my YA fantasy and two short pieces. Jazzy

[Deena] 8:36 pm: Zan, if you can stuff yourself in an email, I’m sure I’d accept you.

[Rae ] 8:36 pm: Jazzy, I’m currently doing that! Lol. I love it. It’s a little nutty but definitely fun

[Caras Galadhon] 8:36 pm: Wargh. Back again. Hi everyone!

[Rae ] 8:36 pm: Hey Caras!

[Deena] 8:37 pm: hello Caras. I’m trying to figure out what wargh sounds like. I see it said with a sort of dino head toss.

[Marva] 8:37 pm: In re the 2011 conference: How about something on how to choose a genre (or let it choose you).

[zan] 8:37 pm: The head toss would make it

[Caras Galadhon] 8:37 pm: Hee. That works for me! I always pictured it as a sort of waaaaaarrrr-guh sound.

[Anna Kashina] 8:37 pm: I am back now.

[Deena] 8:38 pm: Recapping, the con was awesome, next year will be 21 days, I’ll email everyone who participated and invite them to join a keeping-up-with everyone newsletter. We’ll be starting a writing group.

[spot_writes] 8:38 pm: The way I feel about this con ending is the way I used to feel about the end of a play run. Or summer camp. Lol.

[Deena] 8:38 pm: Yay, Anna!

[LynneB] 8:38 pm: @Marva, I like that idea!

[Deena] 8:38 pm: Oh yeah, spot, Summer camp…

[Rae ] 8:38 pm: Ooh! 21 days

[Deena] 8:38 pm: Marva, that’s a great idea!

[Anna Kashina] 8:38 pm: I do keep getting the lines I missed, I just can’t always reply.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:38 pm: A writing group. Great idea. I love it.

[spot_writes] 8:38 pm: I like that idea Marva.

[Deena] 8:38 pm: Oh, I was recapping anyway, Anna. I just wanted to be sure everyone was at the same place.

[Rae ] 8:39 pm: That’s going to be one awesome group

[kris M] 8:39 pm: Deena – even if only 21 — I’m telling my hubby it’s 31 anyway

[Anna Kashina] 8:39 pm: Deena, a writing group is a great idea.

[PeachesNCream] 8:39 pm: LOL @ Kris

[zan] 8:39 pm: I write sci-fi, Fantasy, Mystery, historical, childrens easy read, read to me and bilingual and YA so I don’t really want any other genres to pick me, Marva

[Marva] 8:39 pm: Brief description of writing group?

[spot_writes] 8:39 pm: I like the writing group as well. I got the MayWriMo digests and I almost never posted, but I liked reading them.

[Deena] 8:40 pm: In the feedback, recalling from memory, more basic writing sessions, more things like manuscript format and how to write a powerful synopsis, and the perfect query letter.

[Deena] 8:40 pm: Do you guys like the idea of more workshops? Where you could upload your work and have it critiqued? Like short story writing, and synopses and so on?

[Marva] 8:40 pm: @zan I’m just finishing a murder mystery which is new for me. I figure try out one of everything, like at a buffet, then go back to what tastes good.

[zan] 8:40 pm: Yes Deena YES

[widdershins] 8:40 pm: YEs…. more workshops

[spot_writes] 8:40 pm: @Deena and cover letters for short stories please. Those give me trouble.

[riversway] 8:40 pm: @Deena, yes!

[Deena] 8:40 pm: Awesome.

[barblucas] 8:40 pm: @Deena I love the idea of workshops!

[Deena] 8:40 pm: Okay spot.

[LynneB] 8:40 pm: I have been doing a little of that Marva.

[Rae ] 8:41 pm: That would be pretty cool!

[Amber Stults] 8:41 pm: I didn’t get to do any of the workshops but I like the idea of them.

[PeachesNCream] 8:41 pm: @ Deena yes

[Deena] 8:41 pm: and more authors from other countries?

[widdershins] 8:41 pm: combination of forum and chat

[spot_writes] 8:41 pm: Oh Marva I like that idea.

[Deena] 8:41 pm: Widder, really? So many of the forums I’ve seen are shutting down because of the spammers.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:41 pm: Some time ago I took a very good class in synopsis writing, but I still hate it and would rather write an entire book. I also need lessons in organixzing my time. I never seem to have enough time, especially for stuff like housework.

[widdershins] 8:41 pm: and other cultures

[Deena] 8:42 pm: We may have to shut down the DP forum. In the last week we’ve had 41 people sign up, most of them with v!ag4a in the name.

[kris M] 8:42 pm: Deena — pretty much all this + anything else you can think of.. but yeah cover letters, critiques, synopsis etc.

[widdershins] 8:42 pm: forums need to be moderated… and only open to registered users

[Deena] 8:42 pm: time organizing. cool.

[Deena] 8:42 pm: Other cultures.

[Deena] 8:42 pm: Widder, that would mean many more volunteers. You volunteering?

[kris M] 8:42 pm: volunteer for what? to moderate?

[PeachesNCream] 8:42 pm: I’ll volunteer Deena

[Deena] 8:42 pm: What about places to ask questions about science, culture, geography?

[widdershins] 8:42 pm: of course…. you already knew that anyway!

[spot_writes] 8:42 pm: @Deena those v!ag4a people aren’t just erotic writers?? Lol.

[Deena] 8:43 pm: Kris, yes, the message board if we have one.

[Deena] 8:43 pm: heh, spot

[Deena] 8:43 pm: Thanks, Peaches!

[Rae ] 8:43 pm: I wouldn’t mind helping myself

[zan] 8:43 pm: I will volunteer for a couple of things Deena

[spot_writes] 8:43 pm: I can volunteer too.

[Deena] 8:43 pm: Awesome. Everyone from this year turns into a volunteer for next year, and holy cow what a con it will be!

[Rae ] 8:43 pm: A time workshop would awesome btw. Very helpful.

[Deena] 8:43 pm: and no one will be tired out at the end.

[Rae ] 8:43 pm: Yeah!

[Deena] 8:43 pm: cool, Rae

[kris M] 8:43 pm: ditto deena — anythng for you — you rock!!!

[spot_writes] 8:44 pm: I agree about the time workshop.

[riversway] 8:44 pm: @jazzy, I always do housework in bits and pieces when i’m writing….house is never cleaner…I sort thru all the bits …when I reach that stop spot that i can’t seem to write anymore…than it clears while I’m doing the housework and I’m wrting again

[PeachesNCream] 8:44 pm: @ Rae….YES

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:44 pm: I’ll volunteer too, but I don’t know for what.

[Anna Kashina] 8:44 pm: I will volunteer.

[Anna Kashina] 8:44 pm: For something.

[Deena] 8:44 pm: Anna, you’re wonderful, as always.

[Deena] 8:44 pm: Jazzy, we can put you to work, I’m sure.

[barblucas] 8:44 pm: Absolutely, and then you might be able to enjoy the party a bit more and not always have to play host, Deena.

[riversway] 8:44 pm: I’ll volunteer too Deena…I’m good at organizing.

[Anna Kashina] 8:44 pm: Thanks, Deena! But you are really the wonderful one.

[barblucas] 8:44 pm: I’m happy to help out as well.

[Deena] 8:44 pm: Barb… I’m not sure what I’d do if I weren’t passing canapes! But yeah, that would be awesome.

[spot_writes] 8:44 pm: I’ll bring cupcakes….oh wait…that’s only going to help me…

[Deena] 8:45 pm: river would widder smack me if I kissed you?

[kris M] 8:45 pm: we should have a workshop where Deena gets to ask us questions and we host..

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:45 pm: My mind is organized, but the rest of me doesn’t always follow through.

[Anna Kashina] 8:45 pm: Spot, how about virtual cupcakes?…

[zan] 8:45 pm: I want cupcakes too Widder share now

[Deena] 8:45 pm: Ooh, Kris… hmmm…

[barblucas] 8:45 pm: Cupcakes…. Mmmmm.

[Rae ] 8:45 pm: That would be fun lol

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:45 pm: Chocolate ones.

[zan] 8:45 pm: OOps spot not widder sorry

[spot_writes] 8:45 pm: haha. If I knew how to make virtual cupcakes, I so would

[LynneB] 8:46 pm: I am tasting the chocolate.

[widdershins] 8:46 pm: @Zan…. glad you qualified that one!…. nearly rushed to the oven to bake a few

[riversway] 8:46 pm: @ Deena it could be dangerous…trouble is she might smack me too

[Deena] 8:46 pm: Next year, better profiles for everyone who signs up.

[Amber Stults] 8:46 pm: I went to a wedding yesterday and left before they cut the cake. Now I want a cupcake!

[Deena] 8:46 pm: Oh… hmmm. would that be bad or good, River?

[Deena] 8:46 pm: I found this awesome cream cheese frosting for my son’s birthday cake in February.

[spot_writes] 8:46 pm: @Deena, profiles would be great. I like going and checking out the other peoples
websites and blogs.

[Deena] 8:46 pm: Now, every time I see cake or cupcake, I think of it. Oh. My. Goodness.

[spot_writes] 8:47 pm: I love cream cheese frosting!

[Deena] 8:47 pm: When they’re ready, Spot, I’ll make sure to let everyone know.

[widdershins] 8:47 pm: river makes an awesome creamcheese icing herself!

[kris M] 8:47 pm: ok note to Deena — next yr have workshop with recipe swapping!!!

[riversway] 8:47 pm: hmmm…depends on what you like Deena

[Deena] 8:47 pm: It’s on allrecipes.com, and I can’t find my password…it’s on the other computer, dang it.

[Anna Kashina] 8:47 pm: How come this discussion always turns to food?…

[Deena] 8:47 pm: heee! river, you’re going to get me into trouble.

[zan] 8:47 pm: I work in a deli right next to the bakery so all day every day I smell all that good stuff and its for the customers not me

[widdershins] 8:47 pm: recipes that can be made whilst writing

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:47 pm: You guys are tampering with my diet. I’ve lost 30 pounds and am in danger of gaining them back again.

[Deena] 8:47 pm: Anna, um, we like to eat?

[spot_writes] 8:47 pm: My daughter made an orange cake w/cream cheese frosting the other night during scott’s panel and it tasted like a dreamsicle…

[Deena] 8:47 pm: Oh, that’s a good idea, widder!

[PeachesNCream] 8:47 pm: LOL Anna…they’re making me hungry

[riversway] 8:48 pm: widder is talking about the 15 min choc cake

[Deena] 8:48 pm: time savers of all sorts, widder–easy cooking, dusting while rewriting..

[Anna Kashina] 8:48 pm: Yep, looks like it! I am getting hungry too. Should we have a food session at the next Con?

[Marva] 8:48 pm: You guys are killing me! I’m non-sugar. Splenda stuff just doesn’t have that panache that white sugar does.

[Deena] 8:48 pm: We’ll definitely have to get some sort of organization expert in.

[kris M] 8:48 pm: widder — no recipes for hubby to make while I”M writing….

[spot_writes] 8:48 pm: I have some great crockpot recipes…

[Anna Kashina] 8:48 pm: How about garlic cupcakes? A signature recipe.

[widdershins] 8:48 pm: @Kris… yougot it gal!

[Deena] 8:49 pm: awesome, Spot. We definitely need a recipe thread.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:49 pm: Why not? There are several authors who provide recipes in their books, like the Cat Who books.

[LynneB] 8:49 pm: Crockpot cooking for writers, session for next year.

[Marva] 8:49 pm: @Anna Ewwww.

[Deena] 8:49 pm: Anna… um…. vampire deterrent?

[Deena] 8:49 pm: I like that idea…

[zan] 8:49 pm: My son is a diabetic and cooks with out sugar all the time some of it is really good Marva

[PeachesNCream] 8:49 pm: I should give you my brownie recipe Marva…I’ve done it with Splenda with good results

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:49 pm: Vampire deterrent. Use a lot of garlic

[Deena] 8:49 pm: Should we do one where we make River take a camera into the kitchen with her and show us her cooking?

[Marva] 8:49 pm: Okay. Forum thread for recipes. Check.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:49 pm: I’ll go along with that. I want to see the pictures.

[kris M] 8:49 pm: videos of cooking…. like it

[Deena] 8:50 pm: yup, I like that idea; and maybe one for timesavers in general.

[spot_writes] 8:50 pm: Yes, I need timesavers

[Anna Kashina] 8:50 pm: I also have one for bacon-flavored ice cream

[Deena] 8:50 pm: It’s the bread. She keeps making bread in every session I’m in!

[Deena] 8:50 pm: wow, Anna… is it actually.. good?

[PeachesNCream] 8:50 pm: LOL Deena

[spot_writes] 8:50 pm: Ewwww….Anna…just ewww

[widdershins] 8:50 pm: River….. can do a whole session

[Marva] 8:51 pm: @zan NS can be tasty, but something about sugar just … ummm.

[PeachesNCream] 8:51 pm: I post recipes…with pictures…on my blog most Fridays

[Anna Kashina] 8:51 pm: Deena — it is if you like bacon. Personally I think it tastes horrible, but I thought the idea is neat.

[barblucas] 8:51 pm: @Anna That always sounds so nasty, but when I see it on the food shows, people seem to like it.

[zan] 8:51 pm: Anna my son the diabetic made beef cake and chicken noodle cupcakes the other day but they told him at work to quit bringing in weird stuff go figure.

[Deena] 8:51 pm: I think I like bacon a lot, but I don’t think that sounds like my kind of thing.

[Deena] 8:52 pm: So, how many of you are actually into the idea of a forum/message board?

[riversway] 8:52 pm: since I don’t eat read meat, doesn’t work for me

[Amber Stults] 8:52 pm: Bacon ice cream sounds delightful, Anna! Michael Symon, one of the iron chefs, makes a maple and bacon ice cream in his restaurants that is soo good!

[kris M] 8:52 pm: me

[Marva] 8:52 pm: Hand raised!

[Deena] 8:52 pm: Because the writing challenge group likes the idea, so we might just combine the two and start it now.

[PeachesNCream] 8:52 pm: me

[spot_writes] 8:52 pm: me as well!

[widdershins] 8:52 pm: Yep

[Rae ] 8:52 pm: Bacon Ice cream? Whut lol

[LynneB] 8:52 pm: I am in!

[Deena] 8:52 pm: Okay then.

[Rae ] 8:52 pm: Oh me! I’m def interested

[zan] 8:52 pm: Hand up

[Deena] 8:52 pm: cool, then we’ll do that.

[riversway] 8:52 pm: OK

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:52 pm: I’m in too.

[Deena] 8:53 pm: I expect recipes from you cooking people!

[Amber Stults] 8:53 pm: What a nice way to make decisions.

[Deena] 8:53 pm: I cook, a lot actually. I get tired of my cooking.

[zan] 8:53 pm: That is my job I cook 6 days a week

[Anna Kashina] 8:53 pm: Deena, I like the idea of forum/message board! Admittedly I like it even more than bacon ice cream

[Deena] 8:53 pm: Me too, Zan.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:53 pm: My favorite recipe is pizza soup – and it really tastes like pizza, without all the calories.

[Deena] 8:53 pm: wow, Anna… I’m glad.

[Rae ] 8:53 pm: Lol Anna

[Deena] 8:53 pm: huh. That sounds interesting, Jazzy.

[spot_writes] 8:54 pm: Definitely. Except I make a lot of mine up. Now I’ll have to start measuring how much I actually use. Instead of just “until it looks right” lol.

[Marva] 8:54 pm: @jazzy post that recipe soon. Pizza soup!

[zan] 8:54 pm: Jazzy send me that one please

[Rae ] 8:54 pm: Meaty ice cream hehe

[PeachesNCream] 8:54 pm: Crock Pot recipe for you Deena http://sherrimeyer.blogspot.com/2010/05/fantastic-food-friday-chicken.html

[Deena] 8:54 pm: Spot, me too! My son is a good cook now, my eldest, but it took him a while of “BUT HOW MUCH DO YOU PUT IN!?

[Anna Kashina] 8:54 pm: Deena, are we going to have a transcript of this session? I think it is going straight to my recipe book.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:54 pm: I made it for a Christmas party, invited people from work. Only three came and I accidentally picked the wrong containers to serve it in. They melted. But everybody loved it.

[Deena] 8:54 pm: OOh, i needed a good chicken recipe.

[Deena] 8:54 pm: Anna, we could, sure.

[Rae ] 8:55 pm: Pizza soup sounds interesting though! I’m a pizza addict so I’m game

[spot_writes] 8:55 pm: @Deena, yes, my children get really frustrated with that.

[zan] 8:55 pm: What are you making with the chicken?

[LynneB] 8:55 pm: Well this has been a pleasure everyone. Looking forward to the upcoming communications with all of you on the forum/message board. Have a great summer of writing. I think I have to go now and find something to eat!!!!

[Deena] 8:55 pm: Lynne, thanks for coming. See you around!

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:56 pm: Uh oh, we made her hungry.

[widdershins] 8:56 pm: @Deena…. catch chook… cook chook…. eat chook

[Deena] 8:56 pm: Zan, the link that peaches posted, Chicken Tetrazzini in a crockpot.

[Deena] 8:56 pm: hee, Widder!

zan] 8:57 pm: It kicked me out naughty computer no biscuit

[spot_writes] 8:57 pm: I love crock pot cooking, it frees up so much time. I just have to remember to get the meat out of the freezer the night before…

[widdershins] 8:57 pm: @Zan…. that’ll laarn it!

[Deena] 8:57 pm: maybe right click on it, Zan. Or I’ll email it to you.

[Anna Kashina] 8:57 pm: I just had one of my lapses — bon appetit, everyone!

[Deena] 8:58 pm: Okay, before anyone else escapes, is there any one last thing you want to say about the con?

[PeachesNCream] 8:58 pm: That Chicken Tetrazzini…I just use frozen chicked breast straight into the pot

[Deena] 8:58 pm: Anything you think would make it even more splendiferous next year?

[kris M] 8:58 pm: Deena – loved it!!!!

[Rae ] 8:58 pm: I do! Looking forward to next year!

[riversway] 8:58 pm: screenwriting panel, please Deena

[Anna Kashina] 8:58 pm: Deena, I think it has been great! Next year will be a sweep!

[Deena] 8:58 pm: me too, Rae.

[widdershins] 8:58 pm: Thank you to everyone… presenters and participants…. the world’s a little shinier now

[Deena] 8:58 pm: Oh, yes! We’ll have that River!

[spot_writes] 8:58 pm: I really loved it! I think next year will be even better!

[Marva] 8:58 pm: @Deena Something on non-paranormal genres.

[zan] 8:59 pm: Anyway I fry the chicken, rotisserie it, make potpie, chicken enchiladas with and without spinach and jalapeño, bacon, and stuff the breasts with feta and herbs.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 8:59 pm: This has been a lot of fun. I’ll put on my thinking cap and see what I can come up with.

[Marva] 8:59 pm: @zan you’re killing me!

[kris M] 8:59 pm: we’ll always have May 2010 Deena !!!!

[Deena] 8:59 pm: An indie horror film writer has said he’ll do a screen writing session for us next year!

[Rae ] 8:59 pm: Maybe a short fiction panel? Novellas and short stories

[spot_writes] 8:59 pm: yum Zan!

[widdershins] 8:59 pm: @Deena… greaat!

[kris M] 8:59 pm: yes screen writing… yes

[Deena] 8:59 pm: Sorry, my kids were talking to me. Driving me crazy. Can no longer type and talk to small people at same time.

[Rae ] 8:59 pm: Lol

[Marva] 9:00 pm: Bye! See you all in the forums, etc.

[spot_writes] 9:00 pm: haha Deena

[Deena] 9:00 pm: Rae, sure, we had one short fiction panel, but I think there were too many panelists. I think we’ll cut that no more than 3 or 4 per session next year.

[Rae ] 9:00 pm: Oh! I have to see if I got that transcript

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:00 pm: I’ll be leaving now and looking forward to next year.

[Deena] 9:00 pm: Rae, is there something in particular about short fiction you want to do next year?

[zan] 9:01 pm: Deena I loved this and will most assuredly be back next year and I did volunteer Thank you THANK YOU THANK YOU

[Anna Kashina] 9:01 pm: Deena, I think sessions with fewer panelists may be a good idea.

[Deena] 9:01 pm: Thanks, Zan! You were great.

[kris M] 9:01 pm: night jim-bob, night grampa

[Deena] 9:01 pm: Anna, it was a little mad at times, wasn’t it?

[Deena] 9:01 pm: hee, Kris

[spot_writes] 9:01 pm: Indeed, there’s not enough thanks to give you Deena. Everyone has been great, panelists, moderators, and participants.

[Anna Kashina] 9:01 pm: Deena, yes I think with many panelists it turned a bit hectic.

[Rae ] 9:01 pm: Perhaps a way of writing it. It’s a different approach than writing a novel although the same ingredients are there. The plot, obstacles and focus are a bit different. It’d be great to talk about how it differs and how it’ll fit into the future of publishing (esp digital). If that’s not too much

[Anna Kashina] 9:02 pm: But yes, everyone has been great.

[Deena] 9:02 pm: Okay, that would be good, Rae.

[Rae ] 9:02 pm: Great!

[kris M] 9:02 pm: all hail Deena — till next time we forum/chat/write/email etc…

[zan] 9:02 pm: Once again it sucked my writing into a black hole. Any way Deena THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU and I will be back next year.

[Deena] 9:02 pm: I think so too, Anna. Wonderful group of presenters. Everyone was so enthusiastic.

[Deena] 9:02 pm: Okay, I think we should call it. It’s 9:02, and CoyoteCon 2010 is done.

[Deena] 2:07 pm: This is writing erotica and erotic romance with Teresa Wymore and Joely Sue Burkhart. Both of these very talented authors are skilled at writing sex scenes that sizzle, that still demonstrate character depth and move the plot along. I’m still not sure how they do it. Here’s hoping they’ll tell us.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:09 pm: As Teresa said, we love smut…when it’s really good!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:09 pm: Teresa, how do YOU write really good smut?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:10 pm: I write a lot from experience–not blow-for-blow, but real life not ideals

[Teresa Wymore] 2:11 pm: I try to make it real and love it when it sounds like it is

[Teresa Wymore] 2:11 pm: I’m not shy either, which helps a lot

[joelysueburkhart] 2:11 pm: What makes it real for me are the emotions and conflicts…not the body parts.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:11 pm: I’m more interested in what the character wants and is afraid of — especially in bed.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:11 pm: Yes…I think of my writing as erotica althoug some might see it as erotic romance because of the relationships

[Teresa Wymore] 2:12 pm: What is the definition difference?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:13 pm: The lines are blurred more and more, even between romance and erotic romance, vs. erotica.

[Deena] 2:13 pm: I think the biggest difference between erotica and erotic romance, is that there’s a happily ever after, or a happy for now at the end of the romance.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:13 pm: Erotica (for me) is more about the sexual journey, the exploration, where romance is about the relationship, which sex plays a part.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:13 pm: Bleh…forget the future…live for now…that’s what I like writing

[joelysueburkhart] 2:14 pm: There are things now under the “romance” label that would have been considered erotica ten or twenty years ago.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:14 pm: Yes, lots of blurring can happen in those defs

[Teresa Wymore] 2:14 pm: Yes, explicit sex is normal in mainstream, right, just not dominant?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:15 pm: Romance in general seems to be “hotter.”

[Teresa Wymore] 2:15 pm: I write mostly lesbian erotica, both short and novel, but have written straight and m/m. I started publishing in digital about 10 years ago and even that have evolved

[Teresa Wymore] 2:15 pm: I like the “heat” levels..they make me laugh

[joelysueburkhart] 2:15 pm: Me too, Teresa. Is this “hot” or “smoldering” or “sensual” or …?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:16 pm: I stink at labels. My greatest weakness as a writer is my inability to categorize myself. So when a friend told me to submit a story as “erotic” I was like….really?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:16 pm: Like porn, erotica is going through that adjustment of needing it to be more unusual, envelope-pushing

[joelysueburkhart] 2:17 pm: Personally, pushing the envelope can be dangerous — seems to lead to stories that resolves to simple “acts” rather than any real depth.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: yeah, disappoints me too seeing that act/fetish focus

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: to me, that is porn

[joelysueburkhart] 2:18 pm: A true erotic scene isn’t about the anatomy or dirty words, etc.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: you have to have relationships, and few relationships are all about An Act

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: But #$%^&* if those anthologies aren’t sellin!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: I see calls for new ones every week

[joelysueburkhart] 2:19 pm: *nods*

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: #$%^&* #$%^&* #$%^&*

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: neat

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: like demolition man

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: I write d – a -m -n and it translates it for me

[joelysueburkhart] 2:20 pm: So we’ve talked about what we don’t like in “erotica” — what do you like, Teresa?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:20 pm: dominant women, obedient men, and beer

[Teresa Wymore] 2:20 pm: oh..you mean erotica

[joelysueburkhart] 2:20 pm: Wheeee!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:20 pm: The relationships…I like real people having awesome sex

[Teresa Wymore] 2:21 pm: bad people, good people,

[joelysueburkhart] 2:21 pm: Real people having awesome sex – yes. REAL people.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:21 pm: As we said in the transformative sex panel, the sexual relationship is a “hero’s journey” too.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:21 pm: There are going to be moments of doubt and fear along with the heights of pleasure.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:22 pm: I see newbies entering the market and all up tight abut the sex…I understand it take a lot to break through those insecurities and self-revelations, but the acts are not good without the people.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:22 pm: A scene that can take a reader through many emotions, give them chills and goose bumps…now that is a scene that would make me very happy indeed.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:23 pm: Maybe we could list a few pointers or questions we use when writing an erotic scene?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:23 pm: If a writer can make a good story without sex, then she can make a god one with it, but good sex won’t save a story.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:24 pm: My first would be: use your senses, all of them.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:24 pm: Don’t be afraid to explore the darker emotions.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:25 pm: At the risk of TMI, I admit I use a lot from my personal experience of relationships and sex. You have to rely on what you know…which makes all the murders I write about a little tough, but there are sensual connections, emotional connections to real life

[Teresa Wymore] 2:25 pm: Please never watch porn movies and other people’s sex to write your scenes…they end up being written from the outside, not from the inside of someone with the sensual experience, as Joely says.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:26 pm: Lynn Viehl asks 3 main questions when writing: who are you? What do you want? What’s the worst thing I can do to you?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:26 pm: As a reader, I want to feel it, be in the mdidle of it, not watching it.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:26 pm: You can use these same questions to write a powerful sexual story, too. What do you want in bed? What’s the worst thing you think you need?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:27 pm: Good questions

[joelysueburkhart] 2:27 pm: What’s the worst sexual experience the character ever had? The best? (which for romance, had better happen on the page! haha)

[Teresa Wymore] 2:28 pm: What about bad sex..is it okay to write?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:28 pm: We spend all this time writing up character backgrounds…why not sexual backgrounds too? Dark secrets, greatest fears. They can be very powerful.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:29 pm: Admittedly we don’t see “bad” sex, at least in romance, unless it’s the antagonist.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:30 pm: I’ve written unpleasant sex, often in the early experiences of a relationship, but rarely see it in other writers. I know readers want the fantasy, but as a reader myself, the fantasy includes wanting it real…and what’s more real than evolving and communicating?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:30 pm: Which is a hot button for me — don’t give your antagonist some sexual perversion to say he’s “bad.” That’s exactly why I chose to write a hero that was a sadist — he’s the HERO!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:30 pm: Nice point!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:30 pm: That’s not the “bad” I’m talking about

[joelysueburkhart] 2:30 pm: Right — sorry, you mean a bad, not fulfilling experience, but that’s what popped into my head.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: perversions make for good plots

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: and character dimensions

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: Bad sex as in selfish or unfulfilling or unfinished

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: adjusting

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: fears getting in the way

[joelysueburkhart] 2:32 pm: It’s sort of become a genre pillar that the heroine of a romance should experience multiple orgasms and the best sex ever with ONLY the hero.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:32 pm: She’d never have sex with him and not experience ultimate pleasure.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:32 pm: Yeah, I really don’t like that. That isn’t real, and I feel it does a disservice to women’s sexuality

[joelysueburkhart] 2:32 pm: He’d never need to pop a viagra first.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:32 pm: And most women need much more stimulation

[Teresa Wymore] 2:34 pm: That fascinates me that women are writing these erotic stories and representing women’s sexuality in an unrealistic way. Why do you suppose?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:34 pm: Do women not know their own bodies or are they just writing the ideal regardless?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:34 pm: Maybe because we WISH it could be so easy and wonderful? In fact, sex can be a lot of work.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:34 pm: Hahahaha!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:35 pm: Sorry, I have a headache, honey?

[Deena] 2:35 pm: Maybe we’re programmed to think we’re doing it wrong if it’s not easy, so we perpetuate the stereotype?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:36 pm: The fantasy is a man completely dedicated to the woman’s pleasure. He knows exactly how and where and when to touch, how long, how much. And the pleasure flows like a river!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:36 pm: I keep seeing that Smart Bitches “Ur doin’ it wrong” LOLcat.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:37 pm: Are erotic romance like that…the man truly devoting lots of time and types of stimulation? Or is it about 10 mins, like most men, only the women in the story find that enough?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:37 pm: I don’t read a lot of straight romance any more

[joelysueburkhart] 2:37 pm: That’s how MY erotic romances are, snort. The rest, I don’t know.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:38 pm: I wish they all were

[Teresa Wymore] 2:38 pm: Then I could read more again

[joelysueburkhart] 2:38 pm: It’s definitely hard to write that way — but I guess I like torturing my heroes.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:38 pm: Yes, that’s best…heroes need torturing

[joelysueburkhart] 2:39 pm: I like to set myself a challenge (that’s where zombie romances came from). So one challenge is to write an erotic scene with very few “hot” words. Just the emotions and the senses.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:39 pm: How hot can you make it?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:40 pm: How long can you go before THE act?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:40 pm: Without saying a single f or c word?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:40 pm: NOw that’s erotic IMO.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:40 pm: Good idea…I like delving into the emotions as well, avoiding euphemisms usually, but I like the F and C & C & P words alot.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:41 pm: Sometimes nothing but an f-bomb will do!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:41 pm: But the words are so overdone in today’s erotic stories — I like to try and get by without, at least in first draft.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:41 pm: Deena once said I used “drool” too much

[Deena] 2:41 pm: heh. She did.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:42 pm: Now every sex scene I laugh, Deena

[Teresa Wymore] 2:42 pm: Keep that saliva in your mouth!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:42 pm: It’s like some authors use the potty language as shortcut for “this is erotic” when it’s nothing but curse words.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:42 pm: Yes, and lots of telling…”She was hot” “she turned him on”. Show his feelings, right?

[widdershins] 2:44 pm: What about writing the body bits? At some point you have to get anatomical. What works and what doesn’t and why?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:46 pm: Just watch the purple prose. If you have to call it a helmeted warrior with plum head, then please, just use the c word.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:46 pm: And time period

[Teresa Wymore] 2:44 pm: If you’re new to erotic writing, you might want to get some practice at erotic-readers.com. They have a list you can join. Free and goo dfeedback and you can see what others are doing, too.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:45 pm: About words…

[joelysueburkhart] 2:45 pm: Widder, it really depends on your character. I admit that I can get squeamish, but I’ve had characters who’d rather just call it what it is and move on. I had to grit my teeth and go right along.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:45 pm: I like the basics. I used to try for euphemisms, but that was because I was uncomfortable with saying them. But when I read others’ that can bore me.

[Deena] 2:46 pm: I think it depends on the story you’ve written. What would your characters call those body parts? Toad-in-the-hole? cocksickle?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:46 pm: It has to fit the story too…sometimes gentler sometimes coarser

[Teresa Wymore] 2:46 pm: And time period

[joelysueburkhart] 2:47 pm: You’re always going to have readers who are offended, or laugh. I can’t help but laugh when I see certain words in a “romance” but that’s just me.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:47 pm: That’s the hard part of erotica writing…risking self-revelation

[Teresa Wymore] 2:47 pm: And the heroic part

[PeachesNCream] 2:47 pm: @ Joely “but I guess I like torturing my heroes” — you aren’t exactly gentle to the heroines either *g*

[joelysueburkhart] 2:48 pm:     thanks, Peaches, I’ll take that as a compliment!

[PTurner] 2:48 pm: I realize we’re not getting into this, but one thing that really annoys me is people writing bdsm and having no clue about the complicated relationship between the sub & dom. And don’t forget the safe word!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:48 pm: yes…I think a lot of those writers are seeing it and not in the lifestyle

[Deena] 2:48 pm: A lot of people don’t understand the dynamic in a real BDSM relationship.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:49 pm: I was reluctant to write BDSM because I was afraid I’d get it wrong. I studied a lot…and then realized I’d unconsciously been pulling bits in long beforehand. That gave me the courage to just explore it through my characters, and they told me where they wanted to go.

[PTurner] 2:49 pm: I want to write it but I’m going to make sure I understand it and talk to people who are practitioners, so I learn the right way. And I only read authors who are practictioners.

[widdershins] 2:50 pm: @Theresa…I love your sense of the absurd! …. the difference between writing lesbian erotica and straight erotica? Is there one? I think so!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:50 pm: Just a comment @Pam – will you only read a murder mystery written by a murderer? Non practioners who care can write it correctly if they care enough to do the research.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:51 pm: Yes..and I like writing lesbian more not just because of the sex but because the the relationships and the different power dynamic…it’s not a given like in straight, where masculine submission has to be explained

[Teresa Wymore] 2:51 pm: And by submission I don’t mean bdsm, just relationships

[PTurner] 2:52 pm: Sorry, Joely. That came out wrong. No, I wouldn’t. What I meant was I won’t read an author if I learned she didn’t care to do the research. So yes, I would read authors who weren’t practitioners but cared enough to get it right.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:53 pm: Pam, you’re absolutely right that there are really bad BDSM roms out there, no research, etc. But I learned a lot of what not to do from them!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:54 pm: I used to love Laurell K. Hamilton until I realized how much about BDSM she’d messed up! It does make it hard to read it now.

[Deena] 2:54 pm: How do they find examples of the good ones, of whatever stripe they’re reading, so they can get it right?

[PTurner] 2:54 pm: I just don’t like the way some authors think BDSM is only violence and power control. So I’d give yours a try, or anyone else’s first. My apologies! (Insert foot in mouth, bite down hard.)

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: Where do you find good erotica?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:55 pm: No apologies — you’re right — there are really bad ones. I read Dr. Sarah/Joan’s reviews on Dear Author, even though she didn’t like Rae much in my book she reviewed. She DID say I got the BDSM right — and she’s always careful to point out who’s getting it right.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: DP

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: Otherwise, a lot of crap to wade through

[Deena] 2:55 pm: heh. We don’t have enough of it yet, though.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:55 pm: Do you want more erotica, Deena?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: I buy so much I feel I just wasted my money on–whether digital or print

[Deena] 2:56 pm: Yes, good erotica, definitely.

[Deena] 2:57 pm: I don’t want slot A into tab B erotica. That’s not to say I always get it right either. You might find something at DP you thought stunk up the place.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:57 pm: I’ve made the comment on other panels that erotica is judged differently from other genres

[Deena] 2:57 pm: Teresa and Joely are my idea of really good erotic authors though. And I think they do a great job.

[widdershins] 2:58 pm: The lines between SF genres are blurring.. mostly I think, due to e-publishing and indie writers… where do you see erotica evolving to in the next few years specifically in SF?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:58 pm: Good storytelling is incredibly key, whether the story is erotic or not.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:59 pm: Widder, that’s an interesting question. A lot of erotic SF in the past has been about the human woman abducted by aliens sort of story. I’d love to see erotic stories that explore different sorts of sexuality.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:00 pm: Every genre will grow my explicit. Those of us toilign under the tainted label now will be pushed aside by young new writers for whom it’s not a stigma

[Teresa Wymore] 3:00 pm: I believe it will become more of an art form and less utility

[Deena] 3:00 pm: SF has a long history of being intertwined with erotica. Alien sex; machine sex; I’m not sure if it will change a lot, though I hope there will be more that is feminist-centric rather than patriarchal.

[widdershins] 3:01 pm: yep.. if I have anything to say about it

[Deena] 3:01 pm: Patriarchal sells, though, so it won’t go away.

[joelysueburkhart] 3:01 pm: Good for you, widder! Bring it on!

[Teresa Wymore] 3:01 pm: yes…I believe that will happen Deena, if women write their true experiences and not the ideals bequeathed them by their patriarchal upbringing

[chibiBoo] 3:01 pm: what is a good starting point on researching BDSM?

[joelysueburkhart] 3:02 pm: On my shelf are SM101 and Sensual Magic.

[joelysueburkhart] 3:02 pm: And not reading LKH and believing that a safe word is “enough.” Gah.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:02 pm: I mentioned the erotica-readers.com site before. They have lots of amateur writers and some pros and all kinds of interests. I woudl say you couldn’t go wrong seeing what they’re writing and the feedback they’re getting. the feedback is incredibly, brutally honest

[joelysueburkhart] 3:03 pm: e.g. enough was supposedly her safe word. NO.

[Deena] 3:03 pm: I started by finding BDSM groups online and reading their rules for joining and how they define themselves.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:04 pm: If you’re gong to write sex, you have ot have a thicker skin than any other genre, because everyone knows sex and thinks they’re an expert

[Deena] 3:04 pm: I’m not writing it, though. That was enough for me to get a good overview, but not enough to learn how to write it. Joely and Teresa have good ideas.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:05 pm: I don’t like writing bdsm because, like the lifestyle, it felt like a game to me. I deal with power relationships in writng that are not about granted power and the sub is not the one in control

[Deena] 3:06 pm: I’d like to very quickly stress that Joely’s advice not to use flowery euphemisms is a very, very good place to start writing erotica and erotic romance. No lances, no swords of power, no weeping cave of womanhood.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:06 pm: hahahaha!

[joelysueburkhart] 3:06 pm: *dies* Absolutely no weeping caves!

[widdershins] 3:06 pm: ugh… spare me!

[widdershins] 3:07 pm: and no fading to a flowery sunset either

[Deena] 3:07 pm: And another pet peeve of mine, from an editorial point of view, is make sure that the logistics are possible.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:07 pm: Erotica is too often showing us how to conform in the bedroom, not create, but that will change

[joelysueburkhart] 3:07 pm: Don’t tell me he’s hot…show me the quivering muscles, the quickening pulse, the heated skin…

[Teresa Wymore] 3:07 pm: yes, Deena…I liked your reviews in one of the Membra Disjectas

[Deena] 3:08 pm: I read a story where a young woman was watching two others, and she could see EVERYthing, despite the fact that one had her head buried in the other’s crotch. How is she seeing that, past the hair, and the head, and … it made no sense. Get poseable dolls, if necessary.

[Deena] 3:08 pm: Thanks, Teresa… I think that’s the one I’m STILL thinking about.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:08 pm: yes! Funny

[joelysueburkhart] 3:09 pm: Ha, I need some poseable dolls. Are they tax deductible? *snorts*

[Deena] 3:09 pm: And don’t have your characters shrug off rape, or violence, or torture just because the love of their life is there to kiss it and make it better. AAGH.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:09 pm: That’s because the author wasn’t IN the action but WATCHING it

[Deena] 3:09 pm: hee. Someone… I can’t recall who now, buys poseable dolls for each of her characters. Man, I was feeling the doll-lust. They’re beautiful.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:09 pm: Yes, Deena, I read a disturbing one of those once

[Deena] 3:09 pm: Yes, exactly, Teresa!

[joelysueburkhart] 3:10 pm: If you ever find a Gregar doll, I want him!!

[Deena] 3:10 pm: Me too!

[Deena] 3:10 pm: But yeah, you’ve got dibs.

[PeachesNCream] 3:10 pm: there’s enough Gregar to go round…right?

[Deena] 3:11 pm: Gregar should have brothers.

[Deena] 3:11 pm: Joely… you allow fanfiction?

[Deena] 3:11 pm: heh

[joelysueburkhart] 3:11 pm: @Peaches, @Deena, you guys are so oooo bad.

[riversway] 3:11 pm: I think the dolls came up in the costumeing session

[Deena] 3:11 pm: we are, yes… :highfives peaches::

[PeachesNCream] 3:12 pm: :highfive: Deena

[Deena] 3:12 pm: I’m sure it’s in a transcript somewhere, and if we get a member directory up, we can bug her about where she gets her dolls.

joelysueburkhart] 3:14 pm: Thank you everyone for coming!

[Deena] 3:14 pm: later everyone!

[Teresa Wymore] 3:14 pm: I have to run to a girl scouts event     It’s been great!

[Teresa Wymore] 3:14 pm: I’ll miss these panels

[chibiBoo] 3:15 pm: Thanks for the Con Deena!

[Deena] 3:15 pm: welcome, Chibi! It’s been lots of fun.

[riversway] 3:15 pm: thank you, a very interesting panel

[PTurner] 3:15 pm: Agree, as usual. Great panel today and throughout the con. Thanks!

[widdershins] 3:15 pm: Scoott was my fave presenter last night. but I’ve fallen in love all over again… Joely and Theresa… awesome, witty and knowledgable… irresistible combination

[joelysueburkhart] 3:16 pm: Aw, thanks widder! It was so much fun!

[Emily] 3:16 pm: thanks !!! great panel.

[Deena] 3:16 pm: We’ve had some amazing presenters.

[PeachesNCream] 3:17 pm: Awesome panel!

[scottnicholson] 11:02 pm: Scott Nicholson—six novels published through NY, two collections through small press, and three indie books. Also screenplays, comics, songs, articles, etc. I’ve knocked about a bit so I feel qualified to give advice you probably shouldn’t take.

[scottnicholson] 11:02 pm: I’ve been with three different agencies and worked with other agents, and I also run a small digital publishing company as well as work as a freelance editor. And I format ebooks. So I see the biz from a lot of different sides.

[scottnicholson] 11:02 pm: the mini-lecture then we can go to questions

[scottnicholson] 11:02 pm: publishing is a changing –or dying–industry

[scottnicholson] 11:03 pm: writers below the bestseller list have always had it tough

[scottnicholson] 11:03 pm: and soon they won’t be getting published in NY

[scottnicholson] 11:04 pm: publishing has been going to a narrow and enclosed system steadily since the mid-1990s

[scottnicholson] 11:04 pm: now there are only a couple of major publishers that will even look at unagented novels

[scottnicholson] 11:04 pm: and the bottom line pressure is such that unless a book can sell 20,000 copies or so they don’t want to chance it.

[scottnicholson] 11:04 pm: niche or cross-genre books have a tough time

[scottnicholson] 11:05 pm: obviously fad fiction is in

[scottnicholson] 11:05 pm: but if you write it you better hit the trend

[scottnicholson] 11:05 pm: actually you better hit it before it’s a trend

[scottnicholson] 11:05 pm: if you’ve read the reports out of BEA then even publishers realize they are dying

[scottnicholson] 11:05 pm: ebooks will kill them

[scottnicholson] 11:05 pm: but ebooks will probably save you and me

[scottnicholson] 11:06 pm: so that’s the basic story of the next decade, at least, if maybe not the 21st Century

[scottnicholson] 11:06 pm: okay, any questions, or can we all grab martinis?

[scottnicholson] 11:06 pm: or both?

[Deena] 11:07 pm: I like the martini idea. How are ebooks going to save you and me? How do we take advantage?

[graham] 11:07 pm: how will ebooks save authors?

[scottnicholson] 11:07 pm: I should qualify it–ebooks will save you if you have a good chunk of your rights

[scottnicholson] 11:08 pm: major publishers want to pay 25 percent royalty

[scottnicholson] 11:08 pm: but you can do better than that on your own

[scottnicholson] 11:08 pm: a lot of this will veer into self- and small publishing instead of NY pubbing

[widdershins] 11:08 pm: crystal ball question … Will the big houses turn around and suck up all the indies once they FINALLY see what’s happening…. i.e. mainstream them … as they did with indie hard cover publishers?

[scottnicholson] 11:09 pm: I think the dynamic is too different

[scottnicholson] 11:09 pm: the main one being there is no overhead with ebooks

[scottnicholson] 11:09 pm: (aside from basic editing and design)

[scottnicholson] 11:10 pm: unless someone is really promoting you and bringing you an audience you couldn’t reach, why give them the bulk of the money?

[scottnicholson] 11:10 pm: there were a few Kindle success stories…Boyd Morrison, John Rectore

[scottnicholson] 11:10 pm: people who sold a ton out of the gate and got picked up

[scottnicholson] 11:11 pm: some think that will be an emerging model but I don’t see it

[scottnicholson] 11:11 pm: too many successful Kindle authors are already too smart to give up their rights and wait a year and then make less money

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:12 pm: My publisher pays 40%. However, I’m unknown, just learning how to promote. Is it possible to make decent money? I have excellent reviews but, as I said, I’m relatively unknown.

[scottnicholson] 11:12 pm: the last decade, publishers have been whipping authors into building their own audiences, spending time and money on their own promotion

[scottnicholson] 11:12 pm: and getting an 8 percent royalty

[scottnicholson] 11:12 pm: that’s insane

[scottnicholson] 11:12 pm: if you’re going to drive the audience, you ought to keep the money

[scottnicholson] 11:12 pm: 40 percent is pretty generous at the moment

[scottnicholson] 11:13 pm: again, it all depends on what the publisher is bringing to the table

[scottnicholson] 11:13 pm: whatever makes you the most money is the best move, regardless of the royalty

[scottnicholson] 11:13 pm: if the publisher pays 25 percent and sells three times more than you can sell making 50 percent, that’s the smart move.

[Babs M] 11:14 pm: and srsly if i’m with Drollerie or ZumayA or Dragonfly…or Random House…people can still go to amazon.com or B&N.com and buy my book just the same. Midlisters end up doing their own press…why can’t we?

[scottnicholson] 11:14 pm: sure, all you need is an Internet account

[scottnicholson] 11:14 pm: Amazon already has easy opt-in for small presses and indies

[scottnicholson] 11:15 pm: B&N is starting it and so is Apple

[scottnicholson] 11:15 pm: it would be stupid not to, because it’s easy money

[scottnicholson] 11:15 pm: You can get on iPad, not that that’s going to be a huge book audience

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:15 pm: Yes, you can buy from Amazon, but if your book is on Amazon, they don”t pay the publisher-and of course you–until you’ve sold a certain number of copies.

[Deena] 11:16 pm: Jazzy, are you talking print or kindle?

[scottnicholson] 11:16 pm: not true, Jazzy, I get a check every month

[scottnicholson] 11:16 pm: it may depend on the deals they sign with publishers

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:16 pm: I’m talking Kindle. My books are ebooks at this point and I haven’t earned $70 from them yet. Good thing I have other income.

[scottnicholson] 11:17 pm: I’m not sure what my Createspace deal is but I don’t think it’s been paid out yet, but I haven’t been on it long

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:17 pm: Interesting. I’m going to talk to my publisher. I’m also going to look for a different publisher for my next series.

[scottnicholson] 11:17 pm: that’s odd, Jazzy, I made $50 the first month I did it and got it transferred to my bank account

[graham] 11:17 pm: I worry about the market being flooded with free ebooks from wannabee authors offering their book for free to get noticed, to libraries lending ebooks, to millions of out of copyright books, and illegal downloads. How will a new author make any money and get noticed in amongst all those free ebooks?

[scottnicholson] 11:17 pm: Graham, that’s going to be the challenge…

[scottnicholson] 11:18 pm: it’s going to be hard to get noticed in the sea

[scottnicholson] 11:18 pm: but here’s what I think…

[scottnicholson] 11:18 pm: I think readers are smart, smarter at picking the books they want to read, than NY is

[scottnicholson] 11:18 pm: some people like “anointed” books, ones that they are told are good or popular

[scottnicholson] 11:19 pm: but most people know what they like and will find it

[scottnicholson] 11:19 pm: in the long run, you will find your audience, and the chance is fairer than ever.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:19 pm: What is Create space? Also, I joined something called Authornation some time ago but haven’t figured it out yet. It’s the combination of not being a tech expert and not enough time. Does anybody know anything about them?

[scottnicholson] 11:19 pm: Createspace is Amazon’s POD

[scottnicholson] 11:20 pm: they print and ship the books or you can buy your own at a fairly low price

[scottnicholson] 11:20 pm: it’s a great deal, though it does make the books a little higher than mass market paperbacks

[Babs M] 11:20 pm: and just like 15 years ago Siskel and Ebert told people what movies to watch…now reviewers are far less important. people rely instead on what their facebook friends have liked. and tweeted.

[scottnicholson] 11:21 pm: BTW Graham–free ebooks may be the future of the 2020s

[scottnicholson] 11:21 pm: we’ll get to that later!

[scottnicholson] 11:21 pm: for most of us, getting illegally downloaded would be flattering

[scottnicholson] 11:21 pm: but you’re not going to lose if you keep your price reasonable, $1 to $3

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:21 pm: My publisher doesn’t do print books until you’ve sold 100 ebooks. Would Amazon allow you to buy print books anyway before your publisher had turned it into print? Nutty question, I know. I think I need some good advice.

[scottnicholson] 11:22 pm: the publisher should try to make money whichever way possible

[scottnicholson] 11:22 pm: though I can understand it’s extra work for POD but once the work’s done, it’s
done forever

[Deena] 11:23 pm: Could I address some of that, Scott?

[scottnicholson] 11:23 pm: sure, Deena

[Deena] 11:23 pm: POD through Create Space makes your book available on Amazon. You can pay extra to also get it listed in Baker & Taylor.

[Deena] 11:23 pm: Most of the small presses, if they’re doing POD, are going through Lightning Source.

[scottnicholson] 11:24 pm: Yeah I think the books are a little cheaper but then you have the whole nightmare of distribution

[Deena] 11:24 pm: Set up is a little higher (depending on how many books they send through a year), and usually, sales of about 100 ebooks will cover those costs, so they’re not losing anything on an unproven book.

[scottnicholson] 11:24 pm: LightningSource, I mean

[scottnicholson] 11:24 pm: I looked into that and it was a lot of work and expense

[scottnicholson] 11:25 pm: OK Deena, I understand that

[Deena] 11:25 pm: Editing, at least from what I’ve seen–small press wise–is often more than “basic editing”, and then there’s book block and cover art, so the press isn’t looking at no expense at all.

[scottnicholson] 11:25 pm: a lot of different models are emerging

[scottnicholson] 11:25 pm: I don’t know what’s right or best for each author or publisher

[Deena] 11:25 pm: I agree, though, with Scott, that if you’re confident in your editing, and want to go it your own, have a way to provide yourself with great cover art, go for it.

[scottnicholson] 11:25 pm: but I do know what’s best for me right now and what I’d give up

[scottnicholson] 11:26 pm: The big decision is “How much value does a publisher add?”

[graham] 11:26 pm: a 1 to $3 price for ebooks – I can’t bring myself to buy such a cheap ebook, I think they can’t be edited and the author does not value their work, so why should I.

[eBrock] 11:26 pm: It seems to me that e-books can be as productive as music mp3s. I suspect that the biggest down-turn will be that writers will make less money and fewer will be able to make a living at it.

[scottnicholson] 11:26 pm: Ebrock, I disagree, I think there will be more working-class writers

[scottnicholson] 11:26 pm: the food chain is heavily skewed to the top feeders right now

[scottnicholson] 11:27 pm: because there are people sitting around making million-dollar deals on one-line pitches

[scottnicholson] 11:27 pm: most bestsellers are made before they are even written

[scottnicholson] 11:27 pm: hardly seems fair to me

[scottnicholson] 11:27 pm: but that is the publishing industry and what it does best

[scottnicholson] 11:28 pm: It makes perfect sense for them to try to sell a million copies of 10 books

[scottnicholson] 11:28 pm: instead of 10,000 copies of 10,000 books or whatever the math works to

[scottnicholson] 11:28 pm: I want to go to Graham’s point–visit JA Konrath’s blog

[scottnicholson] 11:29 pm: I sell my ebooks for 99 cents or 1.99, and I will go to $2.99 when Amazon raises its rates

[scottnicholson] 11:29 pm: I am making more than I made per book from a NY publisher

[scottnicholson] 11:29 pm: and it’s the one competitive advantage a lesser-know writer has.

[amyleigh07] 11:30 pm: yeah, speaking as an indie filmmaker and working class writer I have to agree with scott. I’m not wealthy by any stretch. by the way things are going I think the higher quality interesting material can find a home you just have to hustle. and if they’re going to short change you at a major house

[scottnicholson] 11:30 pm: you have to build your own audience anyway

[amyleigh07] 11:30 pm: you’re doing all the work anyway it’s just smarter to at least

[scottnicholson] 11:30 pm: plus you get the direct connection

[eBrock] 11:28 pm: I worry that the average reader won’t be willing to pay competitive prices for ebooks. I know far too many people who think that since it’s “digital” it should be free (or at last much cheaper).

[scottnicholson] 11:31 pm: eBrock, here’s what is stunning to me:

[eBrock] 11:31 pm: Maybe I’m being too cynical?

[amyleigh07] 11:31 pm: find a way to keep your rights and do it yourself or with a small press

[scottnicholson] 11:31 pm: on Netflix, you can get all the movies you want to watch for a month for $8 or $9

[scottnicholson] 11:31 pm: NY expects you to pay $15 for ONE ebook

[scottnicholson] 11:31 pm: that’s clearly skewed and is not getting supported

[scottnicholson] 11:32 pm: compared to a rock single, $1 to $3 is very fair for a book that has nothing but content, no “product”

[scottnicholson] 11:32 pm: I expect by this time next year major new releases will be $5 in ebooks

[scottnicholson] 11:32 pm: indies may have to get down to 99 cents to compete then

[scottnicholson] 11:33 pm: look at Amazon and the Kindle bestseller list

[scottnicholson] 11:33 pm: more indies cracking it with cheap books, even NY is moving down, even after that pricing war

[scottnicholson] 11:33 pm: consumers set the price, not wishful thinking

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:34 pm: I’ve been wishing I could go to another publisher (I know of one recommended by someone
at the Univ of Wis) but my first book is a series and the second one in the series is coming out sometime this year. I
have another book out but it’s not part of the series. Also, my publisher charges $5.99 for my ebooks.

[scottnicholson] 11:34 pm: a little more on cheap ebooks–you can sell waaay more copies at cheap prices

[scottnicholson] 11:34 pm: you will get readers who would hesitate over a $15 trade paperback or even $8 mass market paperback

[scottnicholson] 11:35 pm: I know firsthand–They Hunger from Kensington is $5.59 and is usually ranked around 80,000 on Amazon

[scottnicholson] 11:35 pm: my cheap ebooks rank from 3,00 to 8,000 usually

[scottnicholson] 11:35 pm: clearly the lower price is way more than offset by volume

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:36 pm: Is it possible to find out from Amazon how many of my books have sold?

[scottnicholson] 11:36 pm: yes they tell you in real time if you have your own DTP (upload) account

[scottnicholson] 11:36 pm: I can go 10 times a day and check if I wanted

[scottnicholson] 11:37 pm: but your publisher gets that info, probably

[scottnicholson] 11:37 pm: not trying to disrespect publishers, but again, you give up control, so make sure they offer enough to make it workth it

[scottnicholson] 11:37 pm: it’s a partnership

[Deena] 11:37 pm: But if your publisher signed up through Mobipocket, they probably won’t be able to access that information easily.

[spot_writes] 11:38 pm: I’m convinced epub is the way of the future, here’s why…a friend convinced me to offer my blog for subscription on kindle. I got a check the other day. People will pay, granted, it’s a pittance, to read what I offer for free on the Internet every day, just for the convenience of having it delivered to their kindle. Crazy!

[scottnicholson] 11:38 pm: I think they pay quarterly or something

[Deena] 11:38 pm: I meant the kindle through Mobipocket, Scott. We used to do it that way. It doesn’t work.

[Deena] 11:38 pm: Sorry, not intending to derail.

[scottnicholson] 11:38 pm: ah I see, back in the “old days”!

[Deena] 11:38 pm: It’s been a long day.

[scottnicholson] 11:39 pm: this is all changing so fast it’s hard to track

[scottnicholson] 11:39 pm: B&N decided they want in on it, so they are starting indie uploads

[scottnicholson] 11:39 pm: Apple is doing it too

[scottnicholson] 11:39 pm: Amazon has the advantage because they want to drive traffic to also buy underwear, tires, and even iPads

[Deena] 11:40 pm: Borders now too.

[Deena] 11:40 pm: eBrock asked: Do you think the fact that ebook readers will have to be “updated” every few years will have an impact on sales? One of the reasons I have been holding off on purchasing an eBook is because (just like computers/cell phones) they will always need to be upgraded.

[scottnicholson] 11:40 pm: an army of indie authors pushing people to their books at Amazon is worth it, plus they make money on the book sales too, It’s brilliant

[scottnicholson] 11:40 pm: the Wal-mart of publishing, for better or worse

[scottnicholson] 11:40 pm: eBrock, I am waiting myself, I use the free PC Kindle

[scottnicholson] 11:41 pm: I think ePub will be the dominant format one day

[scottnicholson] 11:41 pm: everybody wants to sell their own device and have it proprietary to keep the audience

[scottnicholson] 11:41 pm: if anyone remembers the different VHS and DAT tape wars

[scottnicholson] 11:41 pm: same thing

[widdershins] 11:42 pm: you mentioned ebooks being free in the future circa 2020?

[scottnicholson] 11:43 pm: well if ebooks get under $10 by the end of the year (and I’m already seeing established backlist at $3 to $5 of Koontz and the like)

[scottnicholson] 11:43 pm: then the bottom end will move to 99 cents

[scottnicholson] 11:43 pm: and readers decide they don’t want to pay for any content

[scottnicholson] 11:43 pm: that’s when it gets tough and you have to find sponsors, advertisers or other ways to make money

[scottnicholson] 11:44 pm: but interactive or transmedia “books” may be the rage then anyway

[scottnicholson] 11:44 pm: it’s changing faster than anyone predicted, in ways no one can foresee

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:44 pm: I’ve never heard of the free PC Kindle. What is it? And what’s interactive or transmedia books?

scottnicholson] 11:44 pm: free Kindle, just go to amazon and look at any kindle book

[scottnicholson] 11:45 pm: there’s a click there to get it, even for Mac

[Deena] 11:45 pm: It’s an ebook reading program for the PC or MAC

[scottnicholson] 11:45 pm: you can get a lot of free ebooks and a kindle tonight and read yourself silly

[scottnicholson] 11:45 pm: go into classic lit and public domain and you might never buy a book again

[scottnicholson] 11:46 pm: transmedia is pictutes, audio, hyperlinks, etc, extra stuff to add to the book

[scottnicholson] 11:46 pm: publishers think this is where they have a shot because they have the money to develop that content

[scottnicholson] 11:46 pm: it will be harder for indies to develop complex formats

[scottnicholson] 11:46 pm: but then you get into movies and away from books, so the audience is not the same anyway

[eBrock] 11:46 pm: Will/are agents still the necessity that they are for print?

[scottnicholson] 11:47 pm: eBrock, agents are vital if you want to sell to a major publisher

[scottnicholson] 11:47 pm: again, you are giving up 15 percent but that’s the only way you will get a big check

[scottnicholson] 11:47 pm: I think publishing in NY is worth it for maybe the next five years

[scottnicholson] 11:48 pm: but remember, even if you wrote it now it might take two years for it to get out

[scottnicholson] 11:48 pm: bookstores are dying fast

[scottnicholson] 11:48 pm: and that’s one of the three main advantages of a major publisher–getting you on shelves

[scottnicholson] 11:50 pm: agents really have little place in the ebook world

[scottnicholson] 11:50 pm: unless they are spinning your ebooks into different markets or products

[spot_writes] 11:51 pm: did you have an agent who worked with the movie deal or did you do it all yourself? How did
that come about?

[scottnicholson] 11:51 pm: long story, basically I set it up myself and then had to beat the agent into following through

[scottnicholson] 11:51 pm: which is actually the way a lot of the world works

[scottnicholson] 11:51 pm: you always have to believe in yourself more than anyone

[scottnicholson] 11:52 pm: agents can be a drag as much as a help

[scottnicholson] 11:52 pm: it’s a marriage

[spot_writes] 11:52 pm: Lol.

[scottnicholson] 11:52 pm: but in the end, they are polygamous and you only get one…unfair

[Deena] 11:52 pm: I offered to reprint a book for an author I admire at a very high royalty because he was having a lot of financial difficulty. He loved the idea, but wouldn’t contact his agent. He asked me to do it. I did, she never responded. I asked him about it, he said, “Oh, she’s like that.”

[scottnicholson] 11:52 pm: so they will always have some they may like better than you or who makes them more money

[scottnicholson] 11:53 pm: yeah, I couldn’t get my agent to do overseas deals

[scottnicholson] 11:53 pm: after I canned him, I immediately got three on my own

[scottnicholson] 11:53 pm: when they are a barrier instead of an asset, well, they can walk home from Lover’s Leap

[eBrock] 11:53 pm: Since it’s obvious that ebooks are the future, what criteria should we look for in purchasing a e-reader (both as a reader & writer)? It seems that each have there (dis)advantages.

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: eBrock, that’s very complex and depends on taste

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: they are starting to show up in outlets like Target and elsewhere

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: you can try out a Nook at B&N

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: go to mobileread.com and read about the different ones

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: it’s all overwhelming to me

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: I just saw my first iPad and I love what it does for comics

[Deena] 11:54 pm: Teleread’s a nice site too.

[scottnicholson] 11:54 pm: but I wouldn’t buy one for $100

[scottnicholson] 11:55 pm: much less having to pay their monthly fees

[Deena] 11:55 pm: There’s a transcript up on here somewhere that talks about all the differences. I can’t remember which session it was.

[scottnicholson] 11:55 pm: yeah Teleread is good, mostly linking to lots of resources

[scottnicholson] 11:55 pm: Sarah Weinman has a good article too

[widdershins] 11:55 pm: re: Agent tales …grounds for divorce I’d say! @ Ebrock… talk to a teenager geek… they’re a great resource

[scottnicholson] 11:57 pm: summary–just be aware of what’s going on and keep up with changes

[scottnicholson] 11:57 pm: think of ebooks as never going out of print

[scottnicholson] 11:57 pm: make sure your publisher gives as much or more than they take

[scottnicholson] 11:58 pm: and still the most important thing is be committed to the craft and your passion! Way more important than worrying about format or print/e

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:59 pm: Is there any recourse if a publisher hasn’t been fair? I’m thinking of mine. What about making an “or else” statement? I want some books in print so I can do book signings, etc.

[scottnicholson] 11:59 pm: Hmm I am not an attorney and without seeing the contract I couldn’t say anyway

[scottnicholson] 11:59 pm: just look it over and talk to the publisher

[scottnicholson] 11:59 pm: if all else fails, concentrate on the next book

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: five of my books are left for dead at Kensington

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: it’s a sick, sad feeling

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:00 am: The next book is part of the same series.

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: they are not even putting them out as ebooks

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: makes no sense

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: Jazzy if it’s written you either get your rights back and publish the two yourself

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: or move on to something else

[scottnicholson] 12:00 am: or just bite the bullet and go with it

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:01 am: Thanks.

[scottnicholson] 12:01 am: sorry I know that’s no fun

[riversway] 12:02 am: if you live in Canada you can go to a legal aid society and speak to a lawyer for an hour

[scottnicholson] 12:02 am: Jazzy you might even have to buy your rights back

[riversway] 12:02 am: sometimes they are lawyers in training

[scottnicholson] 12:02 am: if it’s not selling a whole lot it may make more sense for everybody

[riversway] 12:02 am: perhaps something like that in the US

[riversway] 12:02 am: its worth a try

[scottnicholson] 12:03 am: yes there are legal aid groups

[riversway] 12:03 am: maybe you can ditch the publisher

[scottnicholson] 12:03 am: but honestly, if you’re talking 100 ebooks, it’s not worth the hassle

[scottnicholson] 12:03 am: always better to resolve it clearly

[widdershins] 12:03 am: one thing about this side of the writing business… you have to develop a thick skin real quick… or you fade away

[scottnicholson] 12:03 am: look at your contract and see exactly what your options are

[Deena] 12:04 am: I don’t like to be blunt, but you might also look at your writing. If you’re not selling, maybe it’s not the publisher.

[scottnicholson] 12:04 am: be blunt Deena, it’s in short supply in this biz

[scottnicholson] 12:04 am: all of us need to be told to write better!

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:04 am: I thought I had a thick skin after all the rejections I got from publishers. Now I’ve gotten reviews with “top” ratings and haven’t sold much.

[scottnicholson] 12:05 am: sometimes it takes a while to find your audience

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:05 am: Maybe it’s the type of book – cozy

[scottnicholson] 12:05 am: I truly believe we all eventually find the audience we deserve

[Deena] 12:05 am: Read the reviews. Are they well-written? Do they articulate your good points? Do they sound like fangirls? Maybe they’re not attractive reviews, even if they’re rated well.

[scottnicholson] 12:05 am: it just might not be that big for any particular author

[Deena] 12:05 am: Which is sometimes a scary thought, Scott.

[scottnicholson] 12:05 am: 1,000,000 different titles were published last year!

[scottnicholson] 12:06 am: I didn’t even know there were that many people who could read…

[scottnicholson] 12:06 am: and with voice-recognition and one-button blog publishing as a book…

[scottnicholson] 12:06 am: well, you have to be your best

[zan] 12:07 am: I was once told by another author that most writers don’t have the stick-to-it-ivness to make it. I hope to prove him wrong in my case anyway. And I read about a book a day so that takes care of about 365 of them.

[scottnicholson] 12:07 am: lol well done Zan

[scottnicholson] 12:08 am: do you know anybody who DOESN’T think they can’t write a book?

[zan] 12:08 am: ya a few

[scottnicholson] 12:08 am: everybody I know wants to write one or have ME write it for them

[Deena] 12:08 am: If you talk to my mother, all her friends can write one. Most of them are poetry with charming illustrations.

[scottnicholson] 12:09 am: well, beats love letters to cats, I suppose!

[scottnicholson] 12:09 am: everybody has something to say

[Babs M] 12:09 am: lol

[scottnicholson] 12:09 am: as I said, you may not get a big audience though, but you deserve to say it

[scottnicholson] 12:09 am: saying “I’m published” is not a big deal anymore

[scottnicholson] 12:10 am: it won’t even get you laid in a coffee house anymore…

[Deena] 12:10 am: damn. there go my weekend plans.

[scottnicholson] 12:10 am: so what’s the point?

[spot_writes] 12:10 am: Will you write my book for me Scott? Hahaha…just kidding. No, really. Back off…it’s my book!!

[widdershins] 12:10 am: are we getting punchy now or what!!!

[scottnicholson] 12:10 am: do I get HALF the money after I write ALL the book? (that’s the standard offer)

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:11 am: Sue Grafton, the A,B,C author, said it takes 3 books to get going. I had a friend who didn’t read, couldn’t type, and expected to make lots of money on a book.

[spot_writes] 12:11 am: mmm…well it was my idea so you can have 25%

[scottnicholson] 12:11 am: I know several dyslexic authors…god bless’em

[zan] 12:11 am: The point is that when I tell their stories they get off my back Sometimes those characters can get real pushy

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:11 am: We might not make much money, but we have a heck of a lot of fun writing and meeting other authors online.

[spot_writes] 12:12 am: That is the spirit Jazzy!!

[scottnicholson] 12:12 am: yeah Zan, it’s all about the journey

[scottnicholson] 12:12 am: a good day of writing is better than a good day of bookselling, that’s for #$%^&* sure

[graham] 12:12 am: Thanks, you’re confirming what I have been saying on my blog: that ebooks will eventually destroy the publishing industry, including nearly all author incomes. Perhaps now I’ll start to think about how I will write for a free ebook world.

[scottnicholson] 12:12 am: Graham I have already thought about it

[scottnicholson] 12:13 am: sponsorships and product placement

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:13 am: Like I said before, it’s good I have other income – otherwise I’d be living in the park – and you can’t connect a computer and internet there.

[scottnicholson] 12:13 am: there’s a thing called “fictotizement” or something

[scottnicholson] 12:13 am: where the content is really a veiled advertisement

[widdershins] 12:13 am: @jazzy hang out near cafes and go wireless

[scottnicholson] 12:14 am: like the funny commercials people send viral

[scottnicholson] 12:14 am: if it’s entertainment in itself, it will work

[spot_writes] 12:14 am: that sounds very sci-fi and vaguely disturbing Scott

[Deena] 12:14 am: we could all just illustrate with lolcats.

[scottnicholson] 12:14 am: well it; already happens with ideas

[scottnicholson] 12:14 am: and propaganda

[spot_writes] 12:14 am: Like big business will take over the world. Oh wait…

[Babs M] 12:14 am: hahahaha

[widdershins] 12:14 am: I don’t know whether to feel excited or terrified about becoming published… its a great feeling!

[Rae ] 12:14 am: lol

[eBrock] 12:14 am: More book trailers!!!

[riversway] 12:14 am: @jazzy get someone to translate your contract so you can make a decision…sitting in confusion will eat you alive

[widdershins] 12:14 am: @Deena… lolcats?

[scottnicholson] 12:15 am: it’s the most libertarian time ever in the publishing business

[scottnicholson] 12:15 am: it used to depend on who owned the presses

[scottnicholson] 12:15 am: you had to write to please the church or king or lose your fingers

[Deena] 12:15 am: oh. Dear. Widder. I’m sorry I mentioned it. um, http://icanhascheezburger.com/

[Deena] 12:15 am: I have friends who are addicted to that site.

[scottnicholson] 12:15 am: then you had to write to an elite crowd because only the wealthy could read

[scottnicholson] 12:15 am: then books got cheap and maybe the 50s were the golden age

[scottnicholson] 12:16 am: that site sounds familiar…

[scottnicholson] 12:16 am: see, that’s why books will fade out

[Deena] 12:16 am: don’t go, Scott. Don’t go.

[scottnicholson] 12:16 am: this is the Twitter age

[Rae ] 12:16 am: What about the declining reading percentage? That can get scary. And the people who say “when will the movie version of your book come out so I can “see” it” Yikes.

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: what does it say about us when Facebook is too “slow”

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: more people write more than ever

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:17 am: This has been the most interesting and fun session. I’m glad I came. And I’ll fight against books fading out – right to the end.

[widdershins] 12:17 am: @Deena… just checked out the site…. LMFAO twice!

[spot_writes] 12:17 am: I know Rae it’s sad.

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: tweet, text, etc

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: pecking at little gizmos

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: but it’s different

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: books will evolve

[Rae ] 12:17 am: Yeah

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: reading will evolve

[scottnicholson] 12:17 am: the whole 80-100k word novel will change

[Rae ] 12:18 am: Will shorter fiction become more popular in the near future?

[eBrock] 12:18 am: Maybe serial novels will make a return.

[widdershins] 12:18 am: Noooooo… Scott… I write 80 -100k novels… say it ain’t so

[scottnicholson] 12:18 am: sure I already sell more ebooks of my story collections than I ever did in paper

[scottnicholson] 12:18 am: because the editors say you have to

[Rae ] 12:18 am: That’s sort of a plus for me because I write on the shorter end

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:19 am: I love long books. I don’t want to give them up.

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: and they say that because they fill 48 books to a carton

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: has nothing to do with an “ideal”

[widdershins] 12:19 am: Ok I can live with serialising ‘em… because I like creating on a grand scale

[Deena] 12:19 am: I think there’ll be a market for everything.

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: it’s product and distribution concerns

[spot_writes] 12:19 am: I think kids aren’t encouraged to read anymore unless there’s something big like Harry Potter or Twilight. That was the best part of homeschooling my monsters, I got to pick what they read and we read a lot!!

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: I agree Deena it’s broadening

[Rae ] 12:19 am: I like that. Variety for everyone

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: novellas are in

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: anything works

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:19 am: Seems like a writer has to be 60% salesperson – grrr. I hate sales.

[Deena] 12:19 am: Think of the most popular fan fiction-130-250 k, serialized. People read long, they just read in chunks.

[scottnicholson] 12:19 am: niche and cross-genre stuff can now find its audience

[Rae ] 12:19 am: Spot, that’s awesome

[scottnicholson] 12:20 am: no more “This is a great book but I don’t know where to PUT it?”

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:20 am: Rowling considers her Harry Potter series as one big book.

[spot_writes] 12:20 am: Well, at least they have a firm basis in literature. And will buy books. Lol.

[riversway] 12:21 am: me too, but if I really believe in it I can sell easily

[scottnicholson] 12:21 am: Twilight is fad fiction, not very well written

[riversway] 12:21 am: guess that’s believe ing in yourself

[scottnicholson] 12:21 am: but what can you do? Kids still read a lot more than adults do

[scottnicholson] 12:21 am: sales is not hard if you think of it this way:

[scottnicholson] 12:21 am: and I am trying it

scottnicholson] 12:22 am: instead of thinking of this faceless blob of people with wallets…

[scottnicholson] 12:22 am: visualize the people or one person your book will HELP

[scottnicholson] 12:22 am: or inspire or uplift or entertain or enrich

[scottnicholson] 12:22 am: then you are giving

[scottnicholson] 12:22 am: I tried it with Drummer Boy, just in my mind

[scottnicholson] 12:23 am: “Get it to that 13 yr old kid who will feel less like a misfit”

[scottnicholson] 12:23 am: boom my sales rank went from like 13,000 to 7,000 in a day

[scottnicholson] 12:23 am: I don’t think stuff like that is an accident

[scottnicholson] 12:23 am: we could all do with a little more service work

[spot_writes] 12:23 am: So it’s a karmic payback, Scott?

[widdershins] 12:24 am: beautifully said Scott

[scottnicholson] 12:24 am: give people slightly more value than you charge

[riversway] 12:24 am: thank you scott – that’s beautiful

[scottnicholson] 12:24 am: be incredibly humble

[spot_writes] 12:24 am: that is a lovely idea

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:24 am: Great idea, Scott. Thanks.

[scottnicholson] 12:24 am: it’s a miracle even ONE person wants to read our minds

[scottnicholson] 12:24 am: and if you have the talent and persistent, well, thank your god or higher power for it

[Rae ] 12:24 am: I like that

[riversway] 12:24 am: it’s been a real eye opener

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:25 am: I’m going to have to read your books.

[scottnicholson] 12:25 am: and if all else fails, even if you never get rich, you can sleep at night

[Deena] 12:25 am: He’s also a good writer.

[eBrock] 12:26 am: Scott, I agree. Fame & fortune would be nice, but knowing that someone (or a group of someones) is enjoying my work would be much more fulfilling.

[scottnicholson] 12:26 am: blush thewre are plenty better than me

[scottnicholson] 12:26 am: I just do my thing as best I can

[scottnicholson] 12:26 am: I tell you, these days, it’s not “How can I sell more books?” it’s “How can I be a better human?”

[scottnicholson] 12:27 am: eBrock, that’s interesting

[scottnicholson] 12:27 am: I recently told my wife, “I’m glad I’m not a bestselling writer”

[scottnicholson] 12:27 am: think of the worry, the stress, the expectations, the push to duplicate your previous success and formula

[scottnicholson] 12:27 am: and then having to go all over the place and sit on panels and hang out with industry folks

[scottnicholson] 12:28 am: I get exhausted thinking about it

[spot_writes] 12:28 am: I’ll just be happy if one person has to leave the light on when they go to bed. Is that wrong?

[Rae ] 12:28 am: That’s so true Scott.

[scottnicholson] 12:28 am: that’s right!

[Deena] 12:28 am: I think that’s pretty awesome, Spot.

[spot_writes] 12:28 am: Well, it means I did my job well.

[scottnicholson] 12:29 am: I tell you, I’ve never had as good of feeling in my career–awards or contracts or whatever–that matches nailing that last sentence

[riversway] 12:29 am: the widder says goodnight … she hit the wrong button on her keyboard and exploded

[spot_writes] 12:29 am: And if millions of people are leaving the light on, then I’m kind of a power drain. Can’t have that…

[scottnicholson] 12:29 am: or getting in that good writing session

[eBrock] 12:29 am: A loyal/enthusiastic group of readers is worth far more than all the accolades being a “star” brings.

[scottnicholson] 12:29 am: sweet, Stacey, always thinking of the environemnt!

[scottnicholson] 12:30 am: being a better human

[spot_writes] 12:30 am: Yes!

[scottnicholson] 12:30 am: well I am a taoist

[scottnicholson] 12:30 am: everything fades

[spot_writes] 12:30 am: In my own round about way.

[scottnicholson] 12:30 am: books go out of print

[scottnicholson] 12:30 am: money burns

[scottnicholson] 12:31 am: so enjoy the moment and wherever you are on your writing journey

[scottnicholson] 12:31 am: well any last questions?

[scottnicholson] 12:31 am: you can email me at hauntedcomputer At yahoo.com if you want

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:31 am: No, just thank you and goodnight.

[scottnicholson] 12:32 am: I have a bunch of articles at www.hauntedcomputer.com

[spot_writes] 12:32 am: You can friend him on facebook too!

[spot_writes] 12:32 am: Lol.

[Deena] 12:32 am: Scott, thank you so much. You’ve been a huge asset to the con. I don’t think it would have been nearly as good without you.

[scottnicholson] 12:32 am: and you can get a free writing manual at http://writegoodordie.blogspot.com

[spot_writes] 12:32 am: Thanks Scott. It’s been fun and informative.

[scottnicholson] 12:32 am: thanks Deena for all your work

[eBrock] 12:32 am: Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[Rae ] 12:32 am: This was such an awesome panel. I’m glad I caught a little bit of it. I’ll def be trolling the transcripts

[scottnicholson] 12:32 am: it’s been fun

[Rae ] 12:32 am: Thank you so much Scott

[riversway] 12:32 am: thank you Scott and Deena, it’s been a great

[scottnicholson] 12:33 am: be careful of my advice! Find out what works for YOU!

[Anna Kashina] 9:07 pm: Hi, everyone, I am Anna Kashina. I have been writing and publishing fantasy for over 10 years. My novel “Ivan and Marya”, upcoming from Drollerie Press, is a dark romantic fantasy based on Russian fairy tales. I love fairy tales, both as a reader and as a writer. I believe they are a great resource and a great tool to use in fiction.

[CindyLynn] 9:08 pm: And I am Cindy Lynn Speer, author of The Chocolatier’s Wife and many re-told fairy tales, all of which were collected in the recent anthology, due out any second now, “But Can You Let him Go?”

[CindyLynn] 9:08 pm: Anna, what draws you to fairy tales?

[Anna Kashina] 9:09 pm: And everyone here who has not read Chocolatier’s Wife, should do it as soon as possible!

[CindyLynn] 9:09 pm: *blush* Thank you.

[Anna Kashina] 9:09 pm: Back to the question: I believe fairy tales are a very powerful tool for fiction writing. Fairy tales combine authenticity of a culture with strong characters and entertaining story. Even a straight novelization of a fairy tale can be extremely entertaining, but one can also use them to create twists and unexpected turns.

[CindyLynn] 9:10 pm: I am seriously looking forward to Ivan and Marvya.

[Deena] 9:10 pm: Both of which stories will be out soon; my computer crash has caused all kinds of delays.

[Anna Kashina] 9:10 pm: Thanks, Cindy!

[CindyLynn] 9:10 pm: You’re right. And I think that understanding fairy tales is essential to understanding, not only the culture that the tale is from, but stories themselves.

[CindyLynn] 9:11 pm: The old stories are the building blocks of everything that’s written.

[Anna Kashina] 9:11 pm: Fairy tales are also attractive because the story is vaguely familiar, but the interpretation is unique to the author. When I pick up a book based on a re-told fairy tale, I have a sense of anticipation because there is an image in my head and I look forward to seeing how it would fit with what the author portrayed.

[CindyLynn] 9:11 pm: That’s true. And sometimes it really messes with your head. I havn’t, for example, been able to look at Snow White the same since Snow, Glass, Apples.

[Anna Kashina] 9:11 pm: I guess it builds up on your good point that they are at the base of all the other stories we write and read.

[CindyLynn] 9:12 pm: (That’s a short story by Neil Gaiman…it’s available online for free.)

[Anna Kashina] 9:12 pm: I have not read it.

[CindyLynn] 9:12 pm: It’s…you will find it interesting, I think. It’s just such a interesting look at the tale.

[Anna Kashina] 9:12 pm: I know movie examples are bad, but there is one which is a horror version of Snow White

[Anna Kashina] 9:13 pm: It also changed my way of seeing this fairy tale.

[Anna Kashina] 9:13 pm: Yes, I should definitely check out Neil Gaiman’s story!

[Anna Kashina] 9:13 pm: Fairy tales provide a great opportunity to explore a rich background and often discover some amazing historical underside to a well-known story.

[CindyLynn] 9:14 pm: And…I find it interesting how you can find the same tales across all cultures. The easiest one is Cinderella? (For me) Because you have tales where she’s a Native American girl who is pushed into the fire by her sisters…one where she’s a prostitute in egypt, one where she actually kills her step mother…

[CindyLynn] 9:14 pm: You’re right. Especially since fairy tales really give you a feel for the culture that they are from.

[CindyLynn] 9:15 pm: What are their values? What makes them afraid? What do they feel they need to be happy?

[Anna Kashina] 9:15 pm: I agree, Cinderella is a great example of a universal story, and one attractive to nearly everyone, from every culture.

[CindyLynn] 9:16 pm: Why diod you choose Russian Fairy tales for your book?

[Anna Kashina] 9:17 pm: I felt that Russian fairy tales have not been explored in fiction nearly enough…

[Anna Kashina] 9:17 pm: And the books that do use them make it some sort of a generic fantasy with Russian names.

[Anna Kashina] 9:18 pm: Russian culture is very different, it is a country between East and West and it blends the mythology of two different worlds in a very unique way.

[CindyLynn] 9:18 pm: How so?

[Anna Kashina] 9:19 pm: It is a Christian country, but not in a way any other country is. Some of what we call pagan cults are an organic part of the Russian Christianity and they go back straight to the worshipping of the forces of nature.

[CindyLynn] 9:19 pm: Stories set in Russia often seem to come with a strong mythic feel…it really is a different place.

[Anna Kashina] 9:20 pm: For example, my book centers around the Solstice celebration that in some form is still practiced today.

[CindyLynn] 9:20 pm: How does one “use” fairy tales in their writing?

[CindyLynn] 9:20 pm: How do you go about writing them?

[Anna Kashina] 9:20 pm: Well, once you choose a fairy tale, I start with a lot of research into the culture.

[Anna Kashina] 9:21 pm: I try to see which cultural and historical elements make this tale authentic to this country.

[CindyLynn] 9:21 pm: For me, I tend to be drawn to a story,…I read a lot of fairy tale books, like Perrault, the color fairy books…etc, and I find myself drawn to a story. For one of my short stories, I wondered what life would be like for a girl who, with every word she spoke, a diamond, pearl, or flower appeared and fell from her mouth. I just get fascinated with ideas.

[Anna Kashina] 9:22 pm: And then, I work on creating the characters that would be both authentic and universal, so that everyone can relate to them.

[CindyLynn] 9:22 pm: For another…and why I know a lot about Cinderlla stories, I wondered why there were *so* many Cinderella type stories. And forged a connection, there.

[Anna Kashina] 9:22 pm: So, how do you go about writing a fairy tale which spans cultures?

[CindyLynn] 9:22 pm: I think your point about authentic and universal characters is crucial.

[CindyLynn] 9:23 pm: I read every Cinderella type tale I could find. I decided that the link was the fairy God Mother character, and told it from her point of view.

[CindyLynn] 9:23 pm: Then I chose the ones I thought people would find the most interesting and tried to work from there.

[Anna Kashina] 9:23 pm: Yes, actually, another great point is about choosing a point of view.

[CindyLynn] 9:23 pm: I mimicked, or tried to…the candence and feel of fairy tales in the style of my writing without going over board.

[Anna Kashina] 9:24 pm: Do you ever try different points of view before settling on one?

[CindyLynn] 9:25 pm: I confess, in all the stories I’ve done so far I knew who the main character was before I started the story.

[Anna Kashina] 9:25 pm: In my story, my original POV was from the ‘evil’ side. The main heroine is in the enemy’s camp and she is viewed as ‘evil’ by the traditional fairy tales tellers.

[CindyLynn] 9:25 pm: I knew that I didn’t want to speak through the view of the woman who plays the Cinderella in the story, because I wanted to depart a little, to tell this story from another direction.

[CindyLynn] 9:25 pm: Oooh. That’s interesting!

[CindyLynn] 9:26 pm: Why did you change?

[Anna Kashina] 9:26 pm: I did not — I added another POV, that of the main ‘good guy’. They made a great contrast that carried the story in a very unusual way.

[CindyLynn] 9:27 pm: I like that a lot.

[Anna Kashina] 9:27 pm: The book still starts with her, but then they alternate, creating two sides to each event. I was very happy with the way it turned out.

[Anna Kashina] 9:27 pm: Thanks!

[Anna Kashina] 9:28 pm: So, how do you know which POV to choose? Fairy Godmother is very unconventional.

[CindyLynn] 9:28 pm: Are you going to write more in the Russian myth?

[Anna Kashina] 9:29 pm: I have another story planned, based on another famous fairy tale. It goes back to the roots of one side character in the current story. This character is bad in the current book, but will be the main good guy in the other.

[CindyLynn] 9:29 pm: It’s a hard question to answer. For her, it seemed like the best conclusion…there’s always some magical creature — a cow, a fish, a magical woman…someone who helps the poor Cinder girl out. She was the most interesting connection…and the most like to be immortal, so we could test out other Cinderella stories over the years.

[CindyLynn] 9:30 pm: That sounds very cool.

CindyLynn] 9:30 pm: So, what are some of your favorite resources?

[Anna Kashina] 9:31 pm: For Russian myth, I was actually researching from books.

[Anna Kashina] 9:31 pm: What about yours?

[CindyLynn] 9:31 pm: I love my Andrew Lang books…and I’m a big fan of http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/

[CindyLynn] 9:32 pm: I have tons and tons of books from all over the world, I just read until I get hit over the head.

[Anna Kashina] 9:32 pm: I didn’t know that one — I should check it out.

[Anna Kashina] 9:32 pm: So, what is the next fairy tale you plan to work on?

[CindyLynn] 9:33 pm: I’m not sure. I am almost done with my story about a Domovoi.

[CindyLynn] 9:33 pm: I am interested in the idea of Brownies, but they are not true fairy tales in themselves.

[Anna Kashina] 9:33 pm: Oh, wow. Russian, then?

[Anna Kashina] 9:33 pm: Domovoi is a tricky character to write about.

[CindyLynn] 9:34 pm: He/they are. Because they don’t speak.

[CindyLynn] 9:34 pm: They communicate through gestures, and they are easily made angry.

[Anna Kashina] 9:34 pm: And, I am not familiar with Brownies — shame, isn’t it?

[CindyLynn] 9:34 pm: Brownies are the Celtic equivalent to Domovoi.

[Anna Kashina] 9:34 pm: That sounds cool.

[CindyLynn] 9:34 pm: (And not at all)

[Anna Kashina] 9:35 pm: OK, got it.

[Anna Kashina] 9:35 pm: I can see a special challenge in writing about characters who cannot talk.

[Anna Kashina] 9:35 pm: It seems really neat.

[CindyLynn] 9:35 pm: The idea of the trickster helper is appealing to somone who lives in an old house where weird and unexplained things are always happening.

[CindyLynn] 9:35 pm: Do you have anything else you would like to tell our audience?

[Anna Kashina] 9:36 pm: One more small point on happy endings. To me they are one of the fairy tales’ appeal. But as an author, one also has the power to change them and that makes the story really unpredictable.

[CindyLynn] 9:37 pm: Yes. And the thing is…the scary thing…is sometimes you have to not be afraid to not give a happy ending…otherwise, your audience won’t beleive the tension. “Oh, Cindy! Cindy NEVER kills off a character, so…YAWN. Who cares if he’s hanging off a building by one hand?”

[Anna Kashina] 9:38 pm: Yep, the endings are a great way not to play by the rules and make the story really interesting.

[CindyLynn] 9:38 pm: Well, I don’t have any other points, so, if you’d like, we can open the floor for questions?

[Marva] 9:39 pm: What is the difference between fairy tale and folklore?

[CindyLynn] 9:40 pm: I think that fairy tales are more…story-like. They are a tale with a beginning, middle in and end. This is not *always* so with folklore.

[CindyLynn] 9:40 pm: Folklore can encompass supersititons, explanations, beliefs.

[Anna Kashina] 9:40 pm: I believe fairy tales are part of folklore, which is the most entertaining — the stories created to entertain based on folklore.

[CindyLynn] 9:41 pm: Anna, that made me go ooooh.

[Anna Kashina] 9:41 pm: Sorry, that came out confusing. Folklore encompasses fairy tales and other folk beliefs.

[Frances2] 9:41 pm: Is it possible to come up with a completely new fairy tale? (by new I mean that is not a retelling or new version of a traditional tale) If so, what are the elements that you think makes a story a fairy tale as opposed to simply another fantasy story?

[CindyLynn] 9:42 pm: I dont know that it is possible…because I don’t think we are in the type of culture that would give us the ability to make it into a fairy tale.

[Anna Kashina] 9:42 pm: Frances: I think if you come up with a new one, it has to be culturally authentic and have the traditional elements of a typical fairy tale.

[CindyLynn] 9:42 pm: Fairy tales were part of an oral story tradition, they were passed down as cautionary tales, as comfort tales.

[CindyLynn] 9:43 pm: That’s such a hard qiuestion, lol. Good one, though.

[PeachesNCream] 9:43 pm: The only thing I know about Brownies are from the movie Willow *snort* and they talked! My next project is a Silkie story…not sure if they fall under fairy tales or myths *g*…and because those stories rarely end happy I’m making sure my story does.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:44 pm: Are your stories immediately recognizable as fairy tales, or are they simply based on them? I have a partially created work that is based on Cinderella, but is probably an urban fantasy. I took a class some time ago in creating stories from fairy tales. I don’t have the ending yet but I do think my “Cinderella” will come out the winner.

[CindyLynn] 9:45 pm: Tw of mine are, one of mine less so because I used the elements of Blackbeard but set in a slightly different world.

[Anna Kashina] 9:45 pm: I think the story does not have to be immediately recognazible as fairy tale, but it has to be recognizable some way into the book.

[CindyLynn] 9:46 pm: I think there have to be enough simularities, definitely.

[CindyLynn] 9:47 pm: They key elements that make that fairy a particular fairy tale (for example, a fancy pair of shoes) have to be there, or the reader will be disapointed.

[Anna Kashina] 9:47 pm: Sorry, talking about our stories in particular — mine is more or less recognizable up front, I believe, but it does not start with anything resembling ‘once upon a time’, but with straight action.

[Frances2] 9:47 pm: You mention happy endings, but originally, didn’t a lot of fairy tales end less than happily for their protagonists? At least in the non-americanized, non-Disney versions?

[CindyLynn] 9:47 pm: This is often very true. That’s a good point.

[CindyLynn] 9:48 pm: I can think of several that do not have happy endings, but won’t name them for fear of spoilers.

[Anna Kashina] 9:48 pm: But I think a reader has to know a happy ending is possible.

[CindyLynn] 9:48 pm: fairy tales have a couple of categories…the one that tells us dragons can be fought and defeated, and the ones that warn us about how we act in the world, and the consequences.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:51 pm: [Editor's Note: Technical difficulties prevented her from logging in sooner] I’ll be brief, since I’m sure you’ve all heard some really great stuff already.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:51 pm: My name’s Isabelle. I write multi-genre romance, but have recently veered into YA fantasy based heavily on myth, fairytale and legend.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:52 pm: My first book, Zerah’s Chosen, is the first in a three book series called the Guardian Circle series, which surrounds the lives of six elemental children blessed (or some would say cursed) by their gods to serve their nation and keep the elements in harmony.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:53 pm: Meanwhile, they’re supposed to be devoid of personal relationships, etc. I used a lot of Greek, Indian, and Biblical mythology.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:53 pm: Fairy tales are fantastic because of their familiar quality.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:53 pm: There’s a very universal feel to fairy tales, something that transcends time and gender and social status.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:54 pm: The best possible way to write in fairy tales is to read them. Read the originals, read the rewrites, read the fresh, new fairy tales.

[riversway] 9:54 pm: what is the structure that makes a fairy tale?

[CindyLynn] 9:56 pm: There are a lot of classes of fairy tale and those structures differe a little. (I like the Aarne-Thompson scale)

[CindyLynn] 9:57 pm: The structure also differs between cultures.

[Anna Kashina] 9:57 pm: @riversway: in a general sense, the structure is similar to any other adventure story. Introducing a character and a conflict, facing the conflict, and resolving it. Structure-wise, fairy tales are the grandparents of all adventure books.

[CindyLynn] 9:57 pm: The basic structure is that the character runs into a difficulty that a magical being that is not a God helps them over come. There is usually a trial of some sort.

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:58 pm: This is a fantastic breakdown of the ATU scale Cindy is talking about. http://oaks.nvg.org/folktale-types.html

[Anna Kashina] 9:58 pm: Right, Cindy: there have to be magical beings, of course.

[zan] 9:58 pm: I think the ending is what made them either cautionary tales or comfort tales

[Isabelle Santiago] 9:59 pm: Basically, most fairytales can be placed in categories. Animal tales, tales of magic, religious tales, tales of evil entities like devils, ogres, etc.

Isabelle Santiago] 9:59 pm: People making stupid decision tales. LOL Those are great. Madness always ensues.

[spot_writes] 10:00 pm: Weren’t the Grimms Brothers fairy tales just that? Grim? I mean some of those are definitely not for children. That was the cautionary tale, right? I think Gary said it best the other night when he talked about the “underlying vindictiveness of fairy tales”.

[Anna Kashina] 10:01 pm: Fairy tales were never for children. The most entertaining ones were adapted for children. To my knowledge, Grimm Brothers wrote down what they heard in villages, they did not make up these stories. [Editor's Note: The Grimm Brothers did heavily edit the stories for public consumption. They were not just straightforward recordings of oral tales.]

[CindyLynn] 10:01 pm: Yes, they were. They were partially the product of their culture, too. The lives of the people of that time, when they were writing, were also very bitter, so there’s a mirror into the values of the people that the Grimm Brothers knew and dealt with.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:01 pm: Spot, for a long time fairytales were meant to act as fables, tell some sort of moral story, so they were not necessarily the overly sugary stories of today.

[Anna Kashina] 10:01 pm: When the life was cruel, the fairy tales were cruel too.

[Frances2] 10:02 pm: @Isabelle mentioned “fresh, new fairytales” and my ears perked up… can you speak to that a little?

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:03 pm: Sure, Frances. I’ve found that new authors, particularly in the YA fantasy field, are creating some interesting, fresh fairytale type stories, in tone and magic and feel.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:04 pm: They veer from the typical edgy fare and play out in a more languid, musical way, often involving dragons or spells or magic.

[Deena] 10:04 pm: If you’d like an example of new and re-told fairy tales, a good choice is Needles & Bones, from DP. That’s not YA, though. Don’t let your children read it.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:05 pm: Off the top of my head, I can think of Firelight, which is a new book coming out soon. Can’t remember the author. [Editor's Note: Sophie Jordan, release date of September 2010]

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:06 pm: I felt Graceling had a bit of an epic, fairytale feel to it, once it got past the eighth chapter or so.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:07 pm: Wicked Lovely was a bit of a spin on fae lore and ice queen myth… but that first chapter had fairytale all over it.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:07 pm: It takes a little bit of looking, but you’d be amazed what you find.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:07 pm: I also have a VERY soft spot for creative retellings. Like Ember by Bettie Sharpe (offered for free on her website)

[zan] 10:09 pm: Isabelle, the others told us what fairy tales they were using right now, how about you?

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:09 pm: I’m currently working on a hybrid of original fairytale and ice queen myth.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:10 pm: With other fairy tale references thrown in. Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:10 pm: Brief blurbage: A princess meant to bring her royal household back to power falls in love with her greatest rival and embarks on a journey of passion and self-discovery only to discover their epic love can destroy her.

[zan] 10:11 pm: sounds cool, literally

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:11 pm: Why thank you.

[CindyLynn] 10:12 pm: Very cool!

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:12 pm: Might I know what Cindy and Anna are working on? I’d love to know!

[CindyLynn] 10:13 pm: I’m working on a Domovoi story, because I love the idea of the house elf that’s sort of…the trickster helper type?

[CindyLynn] 10:13 pm: Because they have such strong rules to follow.

[CindyLynn] 10:13 pm: Anna, I think she said she was working on a sequel to her book, Ivan and Marya?

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:13 pm: Oh, nice!

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:14 pm: Cindy knows I’m a big fan. I absolutely loved Chocolatier’s Wife.

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:14 pm: Anna, I’m very thrilled to read Ivan and Marya. Its exciting to hear Russian folklore.

[zan] 10:15 pm: I enjoyed this and learned something too “bonus”

[Isabelle Santiago] 10:16 pm: Yay! That’s the goal, Zan.

[PeachesNCream] 10:17 pm: Awesome panel…thank you for all the info

[CindyLynn] 10:17 pm: Thank you everyone, for coming and being so awesome.

[Frances2] 10:17 pm: Really great panel! so fascinating. Thank you!

[spot_writes] 10:18 pm: Thanks ladies, it really was interesting and informative!

[karenlnewman] 5:18 pm: I edit the online magazine Afterburn SF. I started there in 2006 when the mag opened as horror editor and now I edit the whole magazine. I also edit Illumen.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:18 pm: Hi, I’m Megan. I edit the fantasy e-zine Mirror Dance, the historical fiction e-zine Lacuna, and the electronic/print charity anthology Crimethink.

[Rhonda] 5:18 pm: Hi. I’m Rhonda. I founded and edit the fantasy and horror e-zine Niteblade.

[John Klima] 5:19 pm: Hi, I’m John. I edit the speculative fiction magazine Electric Velocipede. It won the Best Fanzine Hugo in 2009 and has been nominated three times for the World Fantasy Award. Prior to that, I worked at Tor Books and Asimov’s & Analog science fiction magazines.

[JAHowe] 5:21 pm: Hi I’m JA Howe. I’ve been writing and publishing in ezines since the 1990′s, I think starting with Schroedinger’s Mouse, but also Ultraverse. Though I do publish also in hard copy, these days my stuff is mostly online.

[Deena] 5:21 pm: You’re all extremely talented people. Tell us, in whatever order you like, a little bit about how ‘zines got started.

[John Klima] 5:23 pm: Electric Velocipede is a print zine. It started as a fold-and-staple, hand collated, photocopied zine in 2000.

[JAHowe] 5:23 pm: Wow I remember ‘zines just sort of exploding all over the internet… I started with Schroedinger’s Mouse in one of those “shot in the dark” moments, because back in 1996 that was a very new concept.

[John Klima] 5:23 pm: I was inspired by Gavin Grant who edits and publishes Lady Churchill’s Rosebud Wristlet.

[karenlnewman] 5:23 pm: Wade Kimberlin first owned and published Afterburn SF. I was one of 3 editors. When he left due to work issues, the magazine was run, as it is now, by Nat Thompson. The other two editors left, and I was the only one left. At first we published reviews and interviews along with art, but now concentrate on the stories, which are published biweekly.

[Rhonda] 5:24 pm: I can only speak for Niteblade, and really it began as a case of ‘I can do better’. I’d been submitting a lot of my writing to online ‘zines because, frankly, it was easier than submitting hardcopies and I was less than impressed with a fair number of the ‘zines I saw. I figured I could do better. We have.

[John Klima] 5:24 pm: Now Electric Velocipede is a perfect bound magazine, so I’ve moved a bit beyond zines.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:24 pm: I started both of my ‘zines because I didn’t think there were enough places that published what they publish–a wide range of fantasy, for Mirror Dance, and historical fiction, for Lacuna.

[JAHowe] 5:25 pm: *G*I recall being all freaked out at first thinking “wow how’s this effect copyright, will my stuff be stolen,” all that. And now it’s very mainstream.

[karenlnewman] 5:25 pm: Illumen is a print magazine, but I got my editorial start with Afterburn SF.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:25 pm: Also, a bit of what Rhonda mentioned–I wasn’t impressed by a whole bunch of the e-zines I was seeing, physical-appearance wise. The fiction and poetry were okay, but I didn’t find the layouts attractive or easy to navigate.

[karenlnewman] 5:26 pm: As with Rhonda, I like the convenience of email subs and the saving of postage.

[John Klima] 5:26 pm: Last year we implemented an electronic submission system, and it’s been great

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:26 pm: And the saving of floor space! I don’t know where I would keep all of the submissions if they were in physical copy.

[John Klima] 5:26 pm: We got a lot of subs from outside the US, which is excellent.

[Rhonda] 5:27 pm: I’ve used your submission system, I agree, it’s great

[Rhonda] 5:27 pm: …as a submitter I mean. In case that wasn’t clear

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:27 pm: Pirate the submissions system!

[Deena] 5:27 pm: I’ll have to check it out. I’ve been wanting to change the way we accept submissions.

[John Klima] 5:28 pm: Deena, if you have questions about the system, feel free to ask. It’s the same one that’s used by Clarkesworld, Fantasy Magazine, and Lightspeed.

[Deena] 5:29 pm: thanks, John, I will. It looks a lot like a bug-tracking system.

[John Klima] 5:29 pm: That’s exactly what it is.

[Deena] 5:29 pm: That’s very clever.

[riversway] 5:29 pm: How is copyright protected?

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:30 pm: I think riversway is asking how e-zines protect their stories from plagiarism or unauthorized reproduction. Is that correct?

[riversway] 5:30 pm: yes

[JAHowe] 5:31 pm: I believe that was the gist of the question… I’ll take it.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:31 pm: Well, I think plagiarism is a danger whenever an author shares their work…

[John Klima] 5:31 pm: I don’t have a lot of experience with ezines

[John Klima] 5:31 pm: I do post a few stories from each issue online

[John Klima] 5:32 pm: and the authors are always very willing to have them be online so that they reach a wider audience

[Rhonda] 5:32 pm: That’s a tricky question. My answer is to some extent we can’t. E-books are pirated all the time in online ‘libraries’ and while we can work to stop the illegal ‘sharing’ of .pdfs and such when we know about them, we’re unlikely to ever have a 100% success rate.

[karenlnewman] 5:33 pm: The only way to fully protect against plagiarism is to pay to have the work copyrighted, I think.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:33 pm: …but I generally trust that a) most of my readers are decent people and b) the stories I publish are more likely to make other writers go “Cool idea, that inspires a new idea for me!” rather than “Cool idea, I’m going to copy and paste this into a new document.”

[Rhonda] 5:33 pm: Oh, see, I read the question differently.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:33 pm: I don’t think there’s a sure-fire way to protect against copy-and-paste plagiarism, but I also don’t think it’s all that common.

[karenlnewman] 5:34 pm: With scanners, I would think print magazines would be prone to some of the same problems as the online ones.

[John Klima] 5:35 pm: Perhaps

[JAHowe] 5:35 pm: Well, riversway, copyright protection is certainly a big issue with writers. However, if you look over at http://www.sfwa.org/2005/01/copyrights_and_meteorites/ they’ll tell you that no, you don’t have to copyright most of the stuff you pub on the internet. Basically what it comes down to is that any editor of an ezine who’s known to steal someone’s work
him or herself is going to be soon out of business.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:36 pm: @JA, that’s exactly what I told the kids in my local high school ‘s writing group; no one who steals stories from kids is going to stick around long

[JAHowe] 5:36 pm: Thanks

[riversway] 5:37 pm: Thank you all,

[JAHowe] 5:37 pm: (about both I mean)

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:37 pm: Or steals stories from anyone else, but it seems to be the newbies who worry most about that.

[JAHowe] 5:37 pm: correct, Megan…

[Rhonda] 5:37 pm: What do you guys find is the single biggest challenge when it comes to ‘zines? Promotion? Distribution? Content?
[John Klima] 5:38 pm: For me it’s been both promotion and distribution

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:38 pm: For me, promotion.

[John Klima] 5:38 pm: getting the word out is an unending job

[John Klima] 5:38 pm: and people are in so many different places that it can be a real effort to keep up

[John Klima] 5:39 pm: trying to maintain a presence in social networking, for example

[JAHowe] 5:39 pm: hm, there’s a fourth: the staying power of the ezine. Because over the years I’ve seen many that I liked go by the wayside.

[John Klima] 5:39 pm: either you pick one and hope that a lot of people use it

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:39 pm: Ugh, I don’t have the time for social networking for myself!

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:39 pm: Much less for the magazines!

[John Klima] 5:39 pm: or you try to maintain a presence in a lot of places, which is almost impossible

[John Klima] 5:39 pm: exactly

[Rhonda] 5:39 pm: I was hoping you’d say that — I find promotion to be incredibly time-consuming and it’s tricky to find efforts that are effective instead of black holes that suck all my time and energy into them.

[karenlnewman] 5:39 pm: Promotion and sometimes content. I’m particular about what I accept, as I’m sure they rest of you are.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:40 pm: Content has been a real issue for Crimethink

[John Klima] 5:40 pm: in what way?

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:40 pm: I get plenty of fiction subs at the e-zines, but getting nonfiction essays was a challenge

[Rhonda] 5:40 pm: Do they go by the wayside because of one of those other issues though JA, or mostly straight-up finances?

[JAHowe] 5:40 pm: lol I’m on yegods know how much social networking stuff just for the sake of making sure people know I’m out there. and yes, it’s a grind. I have to make appointments with myself to check on facebook, linkedin and so on at least every couple months. Promotion’s a pain.

[karenlnewman] 5:41 pm: I’ve been very pleased with submissions lately. One story last year was a storySouth Million Writers Award Notable Story of 2009.

[JAHowe] 5:41 pm: Rhonda, in answer to your question, I’ve seen both happen.

[Rhonda] 5:41 pm: Niteblade used to have a non-fiction section…we got a total of one submission for it, so that didn’t last long LOL I feel for you Megan

[Deena] 5:41 pm: Congrats, Karen!

[JAHowe] 5:42 pm: me too Megan

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:42 pm: Hee-hee. I’ve been making a lot of reprint requests on essays I’ve liked in other magazines…

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:42 pm: ..and e-mailing people I know to ask for new essays. Most of them had to turn it down because of time constraints.

[John Klima] 5:42 pm: I’m re-openings to subs on June 1, so I’m getting ready for a LOT of content

[John Klima] 5:43 pm: I have a handful of nonfiction columns from regular people, so that’s worked out well for me

[karenlnewman] 5:43 pm: Megan, Nonfiction’s been tough for Illumen.

[Deena] 5:43 pm: John, what are you looking for?

[JAHowe] 5:43 pm: I didn’t realize Illumen took nonfic.

[John Klima] 5:43 pm: in regards to fiction?

[Deena] 5:43 pm: yes

[John Klima] 5:43 pm: I always want to something a little different

[karenlnewman] 5:43 pm: Yes, Illumen takes interviews, reviews and articles.

[JAHowe] 5:44 pm: Hmmm… I’m making a note of that

[John Klima] 5:44 pm: writers like Jeffrey Ford, Kelly Link, China Mieville, Margo Lanagan, Jeff VanderMeer

[John Klima] 5:44 pm: stuff that kind of falls between literary and genre a lot of the time

[John Klima] 5:44 pm: although, that depends on who you talk to

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:44 pm: (I love that kind of stuff)

[John Klima] 5:44 pm: for example, some people think I don’t publish much science fiction

[John Klima] 5:45 pm: and others say that I’m more prone to publish science fiction versus similar publications

[Rhonda] 5:45 pm: LoL

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:46 pm: I always got a sci-fi vibe from EV, but maybe that’s because of the title.

[karenlnewman] 5:46 pm: I did too.

[Rhonda] 5:46 pm: Sci-Fi is in the eye of the reader, and all that

[John Klima] 5:46 pm: could be, I’m not the best SF fan

[John Klima] 5:46 pm: lol

[John Klima] 5:46 pm: the sf I publish is usually pretty weird

[karenlnewman] 5:46 pm: I tend to accept more SF and fantasy than horror for Afterburn SF.

[John Klima] 5:46 pm: you can see examples at http://www.electricvelocipede.com/htm/free_fiction.htm

[riversway] 5:47 pm: Since i’m new to zines – what type of non-fiction do your look for in Illumen, Karen?

[Rhonda] 5:47 pm: I tend to accept more horror than fantasy, but that’s because of what gets submitted more than anything else.

[karenlnewman] 5:47 pm: Illumen is a print poetry magazine. We take articles about poetry, reviews of poetry collections, and interviews with poets.

[karenlnewman] 5:48 pm: No nonfiction now for Afterburn SF.

[BethC] 5:49 pm: Submissions guidelines are obviously important. Can you tell us some amusing instances where people have most definitely NOT followed the guidelines?

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:50 pm: Oh, simultaneous submissions!

[John Klima] 5:50 pm: The big thing I see is submissions without contact information on them

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:50 pm: I get them often, and–weirdly–almost always from creative writing students. I’m making a statistics page just to follow this odd phenomenon.

[karenlnewman] 5:51 pm: Afterburn SF is a PG-13 site. I’ve had people submit detailed sex scenes that go beyond an R rating.

[Rhonda] 5:51 pm: LOL The Niteblade submissions guidelines include a list of things you shouldn’t do because they will make me grumpy. I’ve added each of them as someone has done that thing and made me grumpy. Calling me ‘Mr’, not following formatting instructions. It drives me bonkers.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:51 pm: Also, what John mentioned. Or an author uses a pen name on the manuscript and her real name in the e-mail, so I don’ t match the story to the cover letter.

[JAHowe] 5:52 pm: We’ve another question, I think.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:52 pm: Rhonda, I’ve been called Mr too. Apparently we have such masculine first names.

[Rhonda] 5:52 pm: I specifically say not to indent submissions — 15% of my submissions are indented. I ask for no synopsis in the cover letter and get a great number of them as well. I love the cover letters that say ‘I don’t want to make you grumpy…’ because it means they’ve read the guidelines

[Rhonda] 5:52 pm: LoL I know. I’ve never met a man named Rhonda or Megan before…

[John Klima] 5:52 pm: Or things addressed to a different editor altogether

[Deena] 5:53 pm: My favorite? “I’m writing to request representation.”

[Rhonda] 5:53 pm: I’m curious what the biggest change editors have seen in ‘zines between when they started and now.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:53 pm: Deena, I’d say “Sure, but are you in my congressional district?”

[Deena] 5:53 pm: hee!

[JAHowe] 5:54 pm: lol

[Deena] 5:54 pm: So, guys, what’s the biggest change between now and when you started?

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:54 pm: Well, I’m pretty new to ‘zines, so there haven’t been huge changes–other than an exponential increase in submissions.

[John Klima] 5:54 pm: the biggest change from when I started to now is the popularity of electronic readers and reading electronically

[John Klima] 5:54 pm: ten years ago it wasn’t something people did much at all

[karenlnewman] 5:54 pm: Hard for me to say. I started off as horror editor, and the stories I received required a LOT of editing to be published. I had to take them, or I’d have nothing. Now that I edit all three – SF, fantasy, and horror, it’s easier to find good work.

[John Klima] 5:55 pm: but I’ve even moved to all electronic submissions, so it’s on both sides of the business

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:55 pm: Like Karen, the first work I recieved for Mirror Dance needed a lot of edits, but now, I’m able to reject that kind of work outright.

[Deena] 5:56 pm: The biggest change I’ve seen, I think, is the quality of the publication and the material within it, in general.

[JAHowe] 5:56 pm: Wow, biggest change… well it’s more acceptable for one thing to publish in an ezine. Socially, I mean. I used to get the “oh… yes… one of THOSE…” things from people, because they were considered all vanity back when.

[Deena] 5:56 pm: Or fan, right JA?

[JAHowe] 5:56 pm: yup

[spot_writes] 5:56 pm: Do you all pay pro rates? Or just exposure? And maybe a little more about what you’re looking for and what you’re not.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:56 pm: When my story appeared in Clarkesworld, it was still hard for me to explain to my parents that, even though it’s on the internet, it’s legitimate.

[JAHowe] 5:57 pm: Yes!

[John Klima] 5:57 pm: I only pay semipro rates at this time

[John Klima] 5:57 pm: I’d love to do better

[karenlnewman] 5:57 pm: Afterburn SF pays $30 for each accepted story upon publication, regardless of length.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:57 pm: Mirror Dance is 4theluv, Lacuna pays a token amount.

[Deena] 5:57 pm: DP has a zine, Member Disjecta, that publishes horror, science fiction, fantasy, slipstream, new weird, predominantly, and essays on those fields, or people in them. We pay a pittance. But we’re nice.

[Rhonda] 5:58 pm: Niteblade pays $5/story + a copy and $3/poem + a copy.

[John Klima] 5:58 pm: I pay 1 cent/word with a $25 min

[Rhonda] 5:58 pm: I’d love to pay more, but the money isn’t there yet.

[JAHowe] 5:58 pm: lol I’m just a writer

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:58 pm: Oh, I didn’t know Membra Disjecta was with Drollerie.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:58 pm: Rhonda, same here.

[karenlnewman] 5:58 pm: Afterburn SF publishes action-based fiction.

[Deena] 5:58 pm: Yup…. and it’s been sleeping, but it will be coming out in June.

[Megan Arkenberg] 5:59 pm: Cool!

[spot_writes] 5:59 pm: So since the HWA started requiring pro sales for admission, that makes it tough on all us newbies. I’m fine with 4 the luv, but it seems like they look down on it…

[karenlnewman] 5:59 pm: Afterburn SF is open for submission now!

[Deena] 6:00 pm: Spot, they do, all the professional organizations do. Or, as the SFWA panel said, it’s not that it’s not a great market, it’s just not a pro market.

[JAHowe] 6:01 pm: They do indeed, spot. I know where you’re coming from and it’s one of those hot topics as far as I’ve seen: whether or not you’re “truly” published if you only did stuff for no-pay magazines. Personally I publish in both kinds, always have.

[Deena] 6:01 pm: You should probably submit to pro paying markets first.

[Megan Arkenberg] 6:01 pm: And SFWA and HWA are organizations for pros.

[redstone] 6:01 pm: I just started Redstone Science Fiction and we’ve gotten a lot done, but the factor we are still trying to decide is how often to be open. We are paying a pro rate, but are starting with two stories a month. We got 200 in our first 3-week window. How do you all handle the opening & closing for submissions?

[Rhonda] 6:01 pm: I think 4 the luv markets have their purpose. As a writer they are where I started in order to get my confidence up and move on to paying markets, but you can’t really equate them with pro markets.

[karenlnewman] 6:02 pm: Afterburn SF used to open once a year and fill for the year. Now we’ll be open twice yearly. Right now, I’m looking to buy 14 stories. We close when we have enough stories.

[John Klima] 6:02 pm: I’m pretty much open for six months out of the year

[Megan Arkenberg] 6:03 pm: Redstone, I don’t have any closings for Mirror Dance, but I decided earlier this year to close Lacuna over the summer because I had filled issues too far in the future. In the future, I think the summer closing will be a permanent feature, just to give me a break from half of the slush pile.

[John Klima] 6:03 pm: I was planning on being open on an ongoing basis

[John Klima] 6:03 pm: but I got too many subs filling up issues so I had to close so I wasn’t accepted someething that would then appear three years later

[Rhonda] 6:03 pm: Niteblade is open to poetry year-round and only closed to fiction subs two months out of the year to buy me time to catch up. I’d like to be open on an ongoing basis, but I find I really need that catch up time.

[John Klima] 6:03 pm: so I close for four to six months and then open the rest of the year

[John Klima] 6:04 pm: we’re trying to go to quarterly which will help us out a lot

[karenlnewman] 6:04 pm: In the past Afterburn SF was open maybe two months out of the year. We’ll see with the new system.

[BethC] 6:05 pm: Editors, how long does it take for you to respond to a submission?

[John Klima] 6:05 pm: it takes us about a month

[John Klima] 6:05 pm: sometimes quicker, sometimes a littler longer

[John Klima] 6:05 pm: when I was doing all the reading myself it took a lot longer; 12 – 18 months

[John Klima] 6:05 pm: so it’s MUCH better

[karenlnewman] 6:05 pm: If the story is poor, not long. I’ll hold the better ones for further consideration, and try to make a final decision in about a month or so.

[Deena] 6:06 pm: It takes me a long time with MD.

[Megan Arkenberg] 6:06 pm: It really, really depends. Sometimes I know in a day if a story isn’t right for us, but I’ve had some stories in Lacuna’s slush for three months that I still haven’t decided on.

[John Klima] 6:06 pm: I have three/four (depending on schedules) other readers for EV

[redstone] 6:06 pm: We want to be available for submissions and make it an ongoing process, we are going to try being open the 1st to 15th, each month this summer, but I expect we will get a huge number at the wrong time. We managed to reply to everything on average with 4 weeks.

[John Klima] 6:06 pm: that helps us stay on top of it

[Megan Arkenberg] 6:06 pm: I try to notify authors if it’s going to take me that long ,though.

[Rhonda] 6:06 pm: Duotrope says it takes me about 39 days, and that seems about right on average. Sometimes, if the submitter hits me just as I’m on a reading spree it’s quite a bit shorter, and poetry is usually faster than fiction, but I think 40 days sounds about right.

[Deena] 6:06 pm: Redstone, you will get them at the wrong time, and if you don’t respond the authors will get cranky.

[JAHowe] 6:06 pm: lol karen, that’s kind of the way I used to gauge what an editor thought of my stuff; if it hung out there longer I crossed my fingers that they liked it!

[Rhonda] 6:07 pm: That would be accurate for me JA. I often hang onto things I’m struggling to make my mind up about.

[Megan Arkenberg] 6:07 pm: Same here.

[karenlnewman] 6:08 pm: I’ve gotten to where I’ll hold the really good ones now too.

[redstone] 6:08 pm: Thanks for the info – We’ll put up our first issue June 1st – we’ll see how it goes.

[Megan Arkenberg] 6:09 pm: And sometimes, if I have a pile of response to write, I’ll do the rejections first because they’re harder to write. It means that the acceptances take longer to get their responses.

[Rhonda] 6:09 pm: G’luck Redstone

[John Klima] 6:09 pm: good luck redstone

[Deena] 6:09 pm: Redstone, put a link to it on the transcript.

[karenlnewman] 6:09 pm: I look forward to seeing the issue, redstone.

[spot_writes] 6:10 pm: when you reject something, do you send a form letter (email)? What if it’s really bad? Do you actually say something to the writer? I’m sure I’m not alone in wondering sometimes if “not quite right for our mag” means….please don’t send anything else!

[Deena] 6:11 pm: Spot, if it’s really bad, I send a form letter. If it’s just not quite right, I tell the author why.

[John Klima] 6:11 pm: We just use a form letter. We get too many submissions to personalize things.

[Megan Arkenberg] 6:11 pm: Spot_writes, I think it depends on the magazine. I know I don’t feel comfortable saying “this sucked” flat-out, and I sometimes use round-about phrases like “this wasn’t quite right” or “this isn’t polished enough”.

[Rhonda] 6:11 pm: LOL I usually stick with the form letter, but occasionally I will offer a comment or two. If it’s really bad it always gets the form letter. Though, often ‘not quite right’ really does mean just that — great story, not right for this ezine.

[karenlnewman] 6:12 pm: I usually send a form letter. If the writer is new, I’ll try to offer helpful suggestions.

[Rhonda] 6:12 pm: One of the hardest things I do as an editor is pass on stories that are fabulous (often far better than what I can write) because it’s just not right for Niteblade.

[Deena] 6:12 pm: I should add, if I’m pressed, everyone gets a form letter, and the more submissions I get, the shorter the form.

[Deena] 6:13 pm: Rhonda, that sounds painful.

[Rhonda] 6:13 pm: It hurts. I won’t lie LOL

[karenlnewman] 6:13 pm: I once took a story that didn’t have much action because I loved the story so much. I think that happened just once.

[Megan Arkenberg] 6:14 pm: I turned down a story for Mirror Dance once because I didn’t feel write taking it without paying at least something. It’s only happened once, though.

[John Klima] 6:14 pm: I’ve accepted a few fairly straight fiction pieces because they were too good to pass on

[Deena] 6:14 pm: Megan, Rhonda, John, JA, Karen, thank you all for coming.

[John Klima] 6:14 pm: you’re welcome! it was fun

[redstone] 6:14 pm: I’m Michael Ray, btw, the editor – http://redstonesciencefiction.com the site has been up & we have a facebook & twitter (of course) – Thanks for the advice.

[John Klima] 6:14 pm: go for it!

[karenlnewman] 6:14 pm: Thanks for having me. You can find Afterburn SF at http://www.afterburnsf.com

[Deena] 6:14 pm: Thanks for the link, Karen.

[JAHowe] 6:14 pm: Yes, in fact could all the editors put up a link to their zines on the transcript?

[Deena] 6:14 pm: http://membradisjecta.com is the DP zine.

[Megan Arkenberg] 6:14 pm: Mirror Dance: http://mirrordancefantasy.blogspot.com

[Rhonda] 6:14 pm: Niteblade is at http://www.niteblade.com

[Megan Arkenberg] 6:15 pm: Lacuna: http://lacunajournal.blogspot.com; Crimethink: crimethinksf.blogspot.com

[John Klima] 6:15 pm: www.electricvelocipede.com

[spot_writes] 6:16 pm: Thank you all, it has been really informative!

[BethC] 6:16 pm: Thanks, everyone. Great information.

[JAHowe] 6:16 pm: Thanks for coming and listening.

[riversway] 6:17 pm: Thank you all

[karenlnewman] 6:17 pm: Thank you all so much for coming.

[PeachesNCream] 6:17 pm: Thanks for the great info! Wonderful panel.

[LynneB] 6:17 pm: Thanks to all on the panel and Deena as well. This session provided lots of great info and help.

[Deena] 6:17 pm: Thanks, Lynne!

[JAHowe] 6:18 pm: I agree, good info.

[Rhonda] 6:18 pm: Thank you for inviting me here, I had a lot of fun

[Deena] 6:18 pm: I’m so glad, Rhonda! Come back next year.

[Megan Arkenberg] 6:18 pm: It’s been fun. Thanks for talking and or/listening!

[John Klima] 6:18 pm: I had fun, too! I hope people found it useful

[Rhonda] 6:18 pm: I’ll be here. Count on it

[kimvandervort] 3:03 pm: Hello! I’m Kim Vandervort, and I write fantasy and science fiction. My first novel, The Song and the Sorceress, came out August 2009 and is published by Hadley Rille Books. The sequel, entitled The Northern Queen, is due out September 2010. I have also published a short story and a novelette for two separate Hadley Rille anthologies. While I’d love to be a full time writer, I currently teach various levels of composition at California State University, Fullerton. In my copious spare time, I read the fantasy slush for Hadley Rille, which has earned me the generous title of “Fantasy Editor.”

[kimvandervort] 3:04 pm: I’ve prepared a little “talk” about manuscript format, then I would love to take questions. Sound good?

[kimvandervort] 3:04 pm: The first question most writers ask is “why is manuscript format important?”

[kimvandervort] 3:05 pm: I attended a writer’s conference once where authors were grouped into critique groups to read their work aloud and offer suggestions while published authors, agents, and editors “dropped in” to give their feedback. It was an intimidating premise: “hey, unpublished, insecure writer! Put your work out there to be raked over the coals by strangers and, as a bonus, we’re going to throw in the truly terrifying prospect of Important People dropping in for a surprise critique!”

[kimvandervort] 3:05 pm: While my first instinct was to RUN AWAY FAST, I decided to stick it out. And what happened next turned out to be an excellent learning experience not about the supportive nature of other writers, although that was certainly a bonus. This became an enlightening experience about manuscript format.

[kimvandervort] 3:05 pm: I was fortunate to have been placed in a group with a very young (16), very talented writer who was more frightened than I was. As she was about to begin reading, a Famous Agent sat down at our table to listen. She was everything we expected of a New York agent: pretty, stylish, and thoroughly intimidating. After acknowledging the agent’s presence there, our young heroine took a deep breath, opened her mouth to read—and was immediately interrupted by a heavy hand on her shoulder.

[kimvandervort] 3:05 pm: “Your format’s all wrong,” said the owner of the hand, who punctuated his criticism by grabbing the manuscript pages from her hands, drawing arrows and lines all over it, all while talking rapid-fire about margins and page numbers and font and “do this” and “don’t do that” while the rest of us watched, struck silent by the stranger’s brash, confident attack on the poor girl’s manuscript.

[kimvandervort] 3:06 pm: Just as I was about to leap to the girl’s defense, the stranger dumped the pages back down in front of our girl and whisked away as quickly as he had come. As he left, I caught sight of his name tag: this was the Guest of Honor, a published and popular author. So clearly, he knew what he was doing… right?

[kimvandervort] 3:06 pm: As soon as he disappeared, the Famous Agent leaned forward and said, “If you write a good story, none of that matters.”

[kimvandervort] 3:06 pm: Since this experience, I’ve heard many agents say the same thing, whether at conference panels, on blogs, on twitter, or in person at the bar. On the one hand, this is good news: we, as writers, don’t have to sweat the small stuff! Yay!

[kimvandervort] 3:07 pm: On the other hand, those comments often come with a great big “however.” Often those same agents who will proclaim that the fabulousness of the story supersedes mere format will also chuck your query and partial into the bin after only a few lines. For me, this situation falls under the same category as beginning a sentence with “and” even though your momma and your grammar teacher both told you that you could never, ever start a sentence with a coordinating conjunction.

[kimvandervort] 3:08 pm: One of the first rules we always need to keep in mind as writers, with grammar, structure, and formatting, we have all heard before: “Once you learn the rules, you can break them.”

[kimvandervort] 3:08 pm: Contrary to what the Famous Agent told us that day, formatting IS important—at least, for us newbies. When your first manuscript is published, you can then relax a little bit. Until then, remember that your manuscript format is what makes the first impression on your reader. And it is very, very important that you make a positive first impression.

[kimvandervort] 3:08 pm: Formatting your manuscript has to do with the details. Formatting is like putting the icing on the cake or sliding that science report into just the right clear plastic folder. Details are important because they show that we care about and take pride in our work. They show our love for what we do. And, on a very basic level, they demonstrate that we are capable of following instructions. And this last is much more important than we first realize.

[kimvandervort] 3:09 pm: Let me speak, for a moment, as a teacher. I teach students of all different levels, from college freshmen to graduating seniors. One thing they must all master is the ability to format their papers correctly. There is nothing more annoying than going through a stack of papers, particularly final papers, and discovering those essays that do not meet basic guidelines.

[kimvandervort] 3:09 pm: This is not because I harbor any will for people who prefer to use Comic Sans font in their academic essay or choose to put page numbers at the bottom instead of the top right. What annoys me is that I have GONE OVER THIS AT LENGTH and the students choose to ignore what I have taught them.

[kimvandervort] 3:09 pm: And guess what? Those papers that annoy me stand out like a sore thumb. It takes seconds to flip through a stack of papers and pull aside those that do not follow directions. And when it comes time to grade them, I am predisposed to assume that the student will not have done a better job of following directions when it comes to content and structure than they did with format.

[kimvandervort] 3:09 pm: You see where this is going, right? This is how agents and editors feel when they spray their guidelines all over the internet and still receive query letters that are too long or manuscripts that are written in teeny, tiny single-spaced font. And getting an agent or editor to read your manuscript these days is too great a privilege to throw away your chances because you failed to take a few extra minutes and learn the guidelines.

[kimvandervort] 3:10 pm: So what, then, should authors do?

[kimvandervort] 3:10 pm: First off, research. Start by throwing away the old Writer’s Digest guides and returning all of your outdated books to the library. The internet is littered with agents and editors, and their guidelines are often posted in several places.

[kimvandervort] 3:10 pm: My preferred method of research is to visit agentquery.com, do some quick searches to come up with people looking to represent my genre, make a list of their names, then do a Google search on each individual to see if there’s a blog or home page where I can get the most up-to-date information possible.

[kimvandervort] 3:11 pm: Then, I tailor all of my submissions—query, partial, full—to that particular recipient. I want to make the best impression possible, so it is my job to take the extra time to make sure every detail is exactly correct, from the spelling to the size of my margins. I don’t want to give anyone a reason to reject my work.

[kimvandervort] 3:11 pm: Sometimes, there’s almost too much information to sift through. If you do a quick Google search for “manuscript submission guidelines” you will get too much information.

kimvandervort] 3:12 pm: So I’ve put together a list of Do’s and Don’t's, with the help of my publisher, Eric T. Reynolds of Hadley Rille Books (hi ericreynolds!) to offer some basic guidelines.

[kimvandervort] 3:12 pm: These are, more or less, industry standard.

[kimvandervort] 3:12 pm: Do:
[kimvandervort] 3:13 pm: 1) Use either Courier (or Courier New) size 10 or Times Roman (or Times New Roman) size 12 font. This isn’t fifth grade; we don’t get extra points for using pretty fonts in a giant size. Professional work needs to look professional.

[kimvandervort] 3:13 pm: 2) In the upper left hand corner of the first page, include your name, address, phone number, and email address. Believe it or not, I have seen agents complain that they have seen manuscripts they wanted to accept, but could not contact the author. Don’t let that happen to you!

[kimvandervort] 3:13 pm: 3) Type your approximate word count in the upper right corner of the page.

[kimvandervort] 3:14 pm: 4) In a header on the top right corner of EVERY PAGE type: Author Name/ Story Title/ Page Number. This is very important! If the editor drops your manuscript in a pile of other manuscripts or your pages get caught in a tornado, he/she needs to be able to sort your pages back together properly.

[kimvandervort] 3:14 pm: And, as Hadley Rille is based in Kansas, a tornado is always a very real possibility!

[kimvandervort] 3:14 pm: 5) Space down about a third of the page and type your title. Again, not fifth grade: no bold, no italics, no quotes, no fancy font, no underline. Just the title.

[kimvandervort] 3:15 pm: 6) Beneath the title, type “by” and your byline, which can either be your actual name or your pen name.

[kimvandervort] 3:15 pm: 7) Unless the publisher or editor specifies differently, double space the manuscript.

[kimvandervort] 3:15 pm: Underline words that will be italicized.

[kimvandervort] 3:16 pm: 9) Indent each paragraph (using the tab key is best).

[kimvandervort] 3:16 pm: 10) Left justify—DO NOT RIGHT JUSTIFY. “Locking in” the text on the right hand side both creates wacky spacing in the lines and makes the manuscript harder to read.

[kimvandervort] 3:17 pm: I really can’t explain why this is true, but I know from my experience reading hundreds of essays a semester that visually locking in the right hand margin makes the eyes much more tired, much more quickly than leaving the floating margin on the right.

[kimvandervort] 3:17 pm: I want to stop for a minute, before I go into the list of Don’t's, and ask if you have any questions thus far.

[spot_writes] 3:18 pm: why underline words instead of just italicizing them?

[kimvandervort] 3:18 pm: From what I understand, the underlining is a holdover from when manuscripts were typeset.

[spot_writes] 3:19 pm: ah. so do we do both or just underline?

[kimvandervort] 3:19 pm: It makes the words to be italicized easier to see when you are looking over printed out manuscripts.

[kimvandervort] 3:19 pm: No, just underline.

[spot_writes] 3:19 pm: thanks.

[kimvandervort] 3:19 pm: No problem! I used to wonder that myself.

[LynneB] 3:20 pm: I am assuming we submit in .doc format?

[kimvandervort] 3:21 pm: Lynne, you will need to check the submission guidelines first. Sometimes you will need to bundle up the whole manuscript and ship it off via snail mail, although that is becoming less common.

[kimvandervort] 3:21 pm: Usually it is best to submit the file in either .rtf or .doc.

[Deena] 3:21 pm: Never in PDF.

[kimvandervort] 3:21 pm: But the submission guidelines for those accepting e-submissions will usually be specific about file types.

[Deena] 3:21 pm: (sorry, a pet peeve)

[kimvandervort] 3:21 pm: No problem!

[FrancesP] 3:22 pm: “Unless the publisher or editor specifies differently” is a loaded phrase. I think they all (most) have at least one little tweak they ask for that diverges from that “industry standard” I wonder if it isn’t to make sure you pay attention to their specific house guidelines and aren’t just sending a mass submission?

[kimvandervort] 3:22 pm: That’s definitely true, and I have some comments to that later on in the presentation.

[kimvandervort] 3:23 pm: It’s always better to do the research and tweak for each individual submission.

[PTurner] 3:23 pm: Is Courier New 12 okay? I realize it depends on the publisher of course.

[PTurner] 3:23 pm: Which kind of made that question a moot point. LOL g/a

[kimvandervort] 3:24 pm: I think Courier New 12 is fine. I like Courier 10 because I tend to write long and it saves paper. However, I know many who prefer Courier 12.

[kimvandervort] 3:24 pm: Any more questions before I move on?

[Marva] 3:25 pm: The tabbing for paragraphs seems contrary to using Word’s style graphs.

[kimvandervort] 3:26 pm: Marva, I’m not sure what you mean. I usually just hit the tab key in word to indent the proper amount. The general idea, though, is to make sure your paragraphs are clearly indented. That’s the most important thing to take away.

[Deena] 3:26 pm: If you tab when you start, it sets up an automatic style response in Word, anyway, that will make all paragraphs indent. But yes, setting up your paragraph style at the beginning is also appropriate.

[kimvandervort] 3:26 pm: Sometimes I see indents of only five spaces, which isn’t enough of a break.

[Deena] 3:27 pm: and using the space bar makes some people a little cranky.

[kimvandervort] 3:27 pm: I usually set everything up at the beginning– spacing, margins, everything. Not only does it make things easier as I write, it also is an excellent form of procrastination!

[kimvandervort] 3:28 pm: I’m going to move on now and take more questions a little later.

[kimvandervort] 3:28 pm: I have a list of Don’t's, which are at times a little redundant, but sometimes they bear repeating.

[kimvandervort] 3:28 pm: 1) Don’t right justify.

[kimvandervort] 3:28 pm: 2) Don’t use any fancy fonts–this includes the title, chapter numbers, and other headings. (See #1 under “Do” — use same font throughout).

[kimvandervort] 3:29 pm: This is something to think about when we decide that our characters want to write letters or speak in computer talk.

[kimvandervort] 3:29 pm: There’s often a temptation to use script or some other fancy font to offset that information. However, it’s best to let the text stand on its own.

[kimvandervort] 3:29 pm: Keep in mind that the person to whom you are submitting may not have those same fonts on their computer.

[kimvandervort] 3:30 pm: 3) Don’t use any special formatting anywhere (including titles and headings), like italics or bolding (unless publisher asks for it).

[kimvandervort] 3:30 pm: I used to strictly underline instead of italics, but once I learned it was okay for me to submit to my particular publisher with italics instead, I started changing the underlining back to italics.

[kimvandervort] 3:31 pm: But for other publishers, I will still use the underlining, because I don’t know what they prefer.

kimvandervort] 3:31 pm: 4) Don’t skip a line between paragraphs. The new version of MS Word, to my constant irritation, automatically adds an extra line between paragraphs when you hit the return key. You will have to go into the “paragraph” menu and change the spacing between lines to 0 in order to fix this. Every time. Yes. Irritating.

[kimvandervort] 3:32 pm: Again, this is where it’s better to set this up before you begin typing, so that you don’t have formatting weirdness later.

[kimvandervort] 3:32 pm: 5) Don’t press Enter at the end of each line (let the software wrap the text automatically when you run past the end of the line). This makes your manuscript more difficult to format for publication if (when!) it is accepted. This is particularly important now that more and more agents and editors are accepting digital submissions. Some read your work on their e-readers, so if you do funky things to your manuscript and spacing, the book won’t format correctly for the e-reader.

[kimvandervort] 3:33 pm: When I asked him for further suggestions, Eric T. Reynolds went on to point out that some publishers (including Hadley Rille) prefer electronic submissions single spaced, which is why it is very important to check before sending.

[kimvandervort] 3:34 pm: But he also pointed out that this is something easily fixed with e-submissions, but if you’re printing out 500 pages to send off via snail mail, you want to be sure you’ve followed this guideline to the tee.

[kimvandervort] 3:34 pm: Speaking from my own experience, I prefer double spacing. It’s much easier on the eyes.

[kimvandervort] 3:35 pm: My final suggestion is simple: when in doubt—ask! An agent once asked me for a full manuscript and I wasn’t sure about which font she preferred. AFTER checking her agency website, her blog, and her twitter feed, I dashed off a brief, professional email asking her the question. She responded quickly and thanked me for asking.

[kimvandervort] 3:35 pm: While some authors are timid about communicating with Very Scary Agents, I have discovered that it is actually better to go ahead and initiate that contact than wonder, for the rest of my life, if that Great American Fantasy novel was rejected because I used Times New Roman instead of Courier.

[kimvandervort] 3:35 pm: Perhaps the best advice I could give is to remember that agents and editors are not the enemy. They are looking for great authors and great books to champion through the publishing process. They also, as Editor Claire Eddy of Tor once told me over lunch, “put their pantyhose on one leg at a time.”

[kimvandervort] 3:35 pm: Nevertheless, it is our duty, as aspiring authors, to put our best effort forward so that our submissions look, if not perfect, as close as they can.

[kimvandervort] 3:36 pm: So was that Famous Author at the writer’s workshop correct to mark up that poor young author’s work? While I disagree with his methods, I do, in the end, believe that he had an excellent point. In a market where editors have to find reasons to reject, don’t let them turn you down because your manuscript stands out as the one that doesn’t follow the rules.

kimvandervort] 3:37 pm: One additional place to go for good manuscript format information for SFF writers: Vonda McIntyre wrote up an excellent discussion and example to follow here: http://www.sfwa.org/2008/11/manuscript-preparation/.  This is my favorite, mostly because it helps to actually SEE what the format looks like.

[LynneB] 3:39 pm: You mentioned a letter as part of your manuscript. How would you set that up?

[kimvandervort] 3:39 pm: Good question!

[kimvandervort] 3:39 pm: I did briefly mention query letters and cover letters.

[kimvandervort] 3:40 pm: As with your regular manuscript, I would thoroughly research agent guidelines and their suggestions before sending your letters.

[kimvandervort] 3:40 pm: Usually you will also send a cover letter with your manuscript, which is a very brief intro to the enclosed manuscript.

[kimvandervort] 3:41 pm: And you will format these letters in traditional business letter format. Keep them to one page.

[riversway] 3:41 pm: Hi Kim what type of formatting is the norm for poetry?

[kimvandervort] 3:41 pm: Oh, that’s a good question. I honestly don’t know how to format poetry.

[Deena] 3:42 pm: Very similar. Keep your line breaks where they ought to be, but otherwise, the same as a manuscript, double-spaced usually, courier or times, 12 pt font, underilne italics.

[kimvandervort] 3:42 pm: I would assume follow similar formatting guidelines, such as underlining instead of italics, no bold, etc.

[kimvandervort] 3:42 pm: Thanks Deena!

[Deena] 3:42 pm: welcome!

[riversway] 3:42 pm: thanks

[widdershins] 3:43 pm: That example by Vonda is wonderful ….Etiquette for e-submissions… Most email queries have to be in the body of the email, not as an attachment, for obvious virus-y reasons… any more?

[kimvandervort] 3:43 pm: I do know that you should also never attach anything unless specifically requested. Many agents/ editors will delete your query unread if it comes with a little paper clip attached.

[kimvandervort] 3:44 pm: Also, tailor your e-submission to each individual, every time.

[Deena] 3:45 pm: May I add? be businesslike, polite, don’t call the agent or editor by his or her first name unless you know them, and provide all your contact information in the email.

[kimvandervort] 3:45 pm: Always use their names (spelled correctly!) and personalize each query with something tailored directly for that particular person, whether a comment about their blog or something about one of their authors.

[kimvandervort] 3:45 pm: And to build upon what Deena mentioned, I’ve heard it best not to use Mr., Mrs., Ms., or Miss unless you KNOW the gender/ marital status of your recipient.

[kimvandervort] 3:46 pm: No woman likes to receive a “Dear Mr. Soandso” query.

[kimvandervort] 3:46 pm: Some agents even get super offended and will reject those on sight.

[PTurner] 3:46 pm: This might be the wrong type of question, but what about tracking changes (on/off)? I’ll be dealing w/ those with my editor and am really nervous about messing up the formatting.

[kimvandervort] 3:46 pm: Good question!

[kimvandervort] 3:47 pm: I have personal experience with this one.

[kimvandervort] 3:47 pm: I leave the track changes feature on, but I change the view to “Final” instead of “Final Showing Markup” when I’m still working in the document.

[kimvandervort] 3:48 pm: I do this because, while editing Song and the Sorceress, I realized later that I was actually creating spacing typos unintentionally because I couldn’t see through all the red.

[kimvandervort] 3:48 pm: With my next book, keeping the view on “Final” really helped me see the draft better.

[kimvandervort] 3:48 pm: Eric doesn’t do any final formatting until the track changes/ edits are done.

[FrancesP] 3:49 pm: So what is the best way to address a letter if you don’t know the marital status? Say, I have a query going to Maxine Smart, do I say Dear, Maxine Smart, to avoid the Mrs. Miss Ms. issue ??? it seems like preferences really vary…

[kimvandervort] 3:49 pm: Yes, I would go with Dear Maxine Smart.

[kimvandervort] 3:49 pm: It sounds weird, but it’s safer.

[Deena] 3:50 pm: I get a lot addressed that way.

[FrancesP] 3:50 pm: Are you good with that Deena? thanks.

[Deena] 3:51 pm: Frances, yes, it’s a little odd since my picture’s on the website, so my gender’s obvious, but it’s better than Mr. I’ve gotten a few of those, too.

[spot_writes] 3:51 pm: what should go into a cover letter for a short piece of fiction?

[kimvandervort] 3:51 pm: I treat cover letters for short stories similarly to query letters.

[kimvandervort] 3:51 pm: The first paragraph is altered to indicate that I’m offering the story for submission.

[kimvandervort] 3:52 pm: The second paragraph gives a brief “pitch” about the story, as well as how it fits into the guidelines (if for a specific anthology or contest).

[kimvandervort] 3:52 pm: The third paragraph is relevant biographical information.

[spot_writes] 3:52 pm: what if I have no relevant info? Lol.

[kimvandervort] 3:52 pm: The fourth paragraph is simply “thank you for your time” and “I look forward to hearing from you.”

[kimvandervort] 3:53 pm: EVERYONE has relevant info!

[kimvandervort] 3:53 pm: You have to figure out what that is.

[spot_writes] 3:53 pm: haha. thanks!

[kimvandervort] 3:53 pm: Say something about your education, your love of the genre, what you’re working on.

[kimvandervort] 3:53 pm: And keep it brief.

[spot_writes] 3:54 pm: Thank you. You have really given some good info.

[kimvandervort] 3:54 pm: Everyone talks about a “platform” these days, which is sort of stressful.

[kimvandervort] 3:54 pm: Especially if you’re new.

[kimvandervort] 3:54 pm: I used my Master’s Degree in Medieval Literature.

[kimvandervort] 3:55 pm: (Which, otherwise, has not been terribly useful).

[kimvandervort] 3:55 pm: Oh! And I missed the thank you, Spot. You’re welcome!

[Deena] 3:56 pm: You might also add a little bit about how excited you are to promote the book if you’re accepted, and what your social network consists of online.

[kimvandervort] 3:56 pm: The main thing is to keep it brief in a cover letter and not exaggerate.

[kimvandervort] 3:56 pm: Good idea!

[kimvandervort] 3:56 pm: Any more questions?

[kimvandervort] 3:56 pm: That was a fast hour!

[Deena] 3:57 pm: It was. The time always goes by so fast in a good session.

[Deena] 3:57 pm: Kim, thank you so much for coming and sharing with us.

[riversway] 3:58 pm: Thank you both – a Great Session – aand a lot of helpful info. You’ve given me a lot to work with

[kimvandervort] 3:58 pm: If any of you have more questions, feel free to email me through my website: www.kimvandervort.com

[LynneB] 3:58 pm: Thanks Kim. This was perhaps the most useful workshop I have attended. Such good information and so to the point.

[spot_writes] 3:58 pm: Thank you kim and deena! It was a great session.

[kimvandervort] 3:58 pm: Thanks Lynne and riversway!

[Deena] 3:58 pm: I’m so glad to hear it, Lynne!

[FrancesP] 3:58 pm: fantastic panel. Thanks!

[PTurner] 3:58 pm: Great session. Thank you for all the information.

[widdershins] 3:58 pm: Thanks Kim…. food for thought and notes to keep

[LynneB] 3:59 pm: See everyone at the next session.

[kimvandervort] 3:59 pm: I’m going to post this information to my website later on this weekend.

[kimvandervort] 3:59 pm: Thanks everyone! This was a true pleasure! Hope to see you all around the internet!

[kimvandervort] 4:00 pm: The link to my website is www.kimvandervort.com

[spot_writes] 4:00 pm: see y’all in about an hour! Lol.

[Deena] 4:00 pm: ‘zine evolution is up at 5!

[LynneB] 4:00 pm: For sure and I will be right over to your website Kim.

[kimvandervort] 4:00 pm: Keep writing everyone! Be persistent!

Recommended Reading: http://www.zudacomics.com/, Scott McCloud titles: Understanding Comics, Reinventing Comics, Making Comics; Panel One, and Panel Two by Kurt Busiek; Story: Substance, Structure, Style, and the Principles of Screeen Writing by Robert McKee. Please read the transcript for recommended comics and graphic novels.

[frasersherman] 11:05 pm: I’m Fraser Sherman. I write short-stories, film reference books and other stuff. Including a story in Drollerie’s Straying From the Path. I’ve been reading comics/graphic novels since childhood; tried submitting a couple of times, but never successfully.

[CindyLynn] 11:06 pm: I’m Cindy Lynn Speer. I’ve loved comic books, their possibilities as a medium, all of my life. I’ve written several of them (but never published) and hope to finally find an artist to work with. I mostly write fable-esq mysteries and re-told fairy tales. I garden and pretend I’m a swashbuckler.

[CindyLynn] 11:07 pm: I also love to over use commas.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:07 pm: I write and illustrate. I’m currently working on a graphic novel prequel to fantasy epic Darklaw. I’ve collected comic books since I was young and love graphic novels as well as digital comics. Early influences were Ernie Chan & John Buscema (those inks!), any story by Gaiman esp. Death. Loving the reprint collections of comics coming out with 70′s work and the explosion of digital! You can see some of my pages in process at my website (adult content).

[Deena] 11:08 pm: Okay, so what’s the process for getting a graphic novel written and published?

[CindyLynn] 11:08 pm: The first thing to do is find some good scripts. There’s a series called “Panel One” — it’s two books that include some scripts by the best writers out there, including Neil Gaiman.

[frasersherman] 11:09 pm: Well, there are a lot of options beyond the traditional comics publishers. Just browsing the graphics novel section in bookstores shows that.

[CindyLynn] 11:09 pm: See what other people do, and how. It is a very different medium…and it takes a different set of mental mucles to do it.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:09 pm: Collaboration is the first step for most

[Teresa Wymore] 11:09 pm: Most are writer or illustrator

[Teresa Wymore] 11:10 pm: Amateur sites online are getting good and have examples

[frasersherman] 11:10 pm: I just read Scott McLeod’s Understanding Comics last month and the points he makes about how it works–like the time/space shifts between panels–were fascinating.

[CinyLynn] 11:10 pm: Do you think finding, for example, if you are a writer, the person who will be doing the pencils, is a crucial first step? Because I guess it would allow you to write to the strengths of your partner? Or is that not absolutely so?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:11 pm: If you get a script accepted by a large house, they find your artists, but you’d probably need a completed piece for any newbie.

Teresa Wymore] 11:12 pm: You have to kind of plan ahead to the medium, too…

[CindyLynn] 11:13 pm: This is very true. One of the most wonderful things about this genre is that you can tell so much with pictures. Something important that might take paragraphs to describe, it gets distilled down to one panel.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:13 pm: Traditional comic book size, ebook pdf, digital? Each has a different format.

[CindyLynn] 11:14 pm: And what Teresa mentioned…timing is critical, too. You need to plan carefully to make sure the pacing feels right, that you’re not rushing the reader through.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:14 pm: Then, there are different artists for the project, not always one to pencil, ink, color

[Teresa Wymore] 11:15 pm: As a writer, I find I use too many words and have to trim a lot.

[Deena] 11:15 pm: I think we’re safe assuming everyone here is wanting to write, but they should know what the other people do. What does the penciler do? Who does the inks? When do they do the colors? What about the letterer? How much input does the author have in the output of each of those people?

[CindyLynn] 11:15 pm: That’s what I was asking about, finding the artist, earlier? Because some artists have a style that is very good for that particular story, and some…not so much.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:15 pm: Some of my fave books have had maybe 200 words!

[frasersherman] 11:16 pm: I’ve heard plenty of stories about “that artist was all wrong for my project” from writers at the larger houses.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:16 pm: Yes, artists do have their styles, and there are totally different approaches out there — traditional, manga, comic

[CindyLynn] 11:16 pm: You pencil, generally first. The inker cleans up the pencils, draws and adds definition. The penciled panel will look much different than the inked panel.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:17 pm: If the inker is good

[CindyLynn] 11:17 pm: *lol* Good point.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:17 pm: I don’t think the writer has much input unless you’re a Gaiman or friends with your artist

[CindyLynn] 11:18 pm: The letterer also is not just someone who puts the words in the balloons/captions. The style of lettering can add to the mood of the piece.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:18 pm: It’s a collaboration in a way other writing isn’t.

[frasersherman] 11:18 pm: In some ways it’s closer to theater or film where you have very different disciplines working together.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:19 pm: Most of the art is done digitally these days, pencils scanned in, inks with tablet, colors with tablet in PS

[CindyLynn] 11:20 pm: Which, in some ways, has changed the feel of the comic…at least in the ones where they really take advantage of the technology.

[Deena] 11:20 pm: So, you have a great idea, and you can “see” it in your head. It would be perfect for a graphic novel, you’ve read other people’s work, you kind of know what you like… and then?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:21 pm: Script and submit, but better chance if you can meet up with an artist. Places like Penciljack have amateurs posting.

[CindyLynn] 11:21 pm: I generally tend to write it as a rough script. The first draft is a script where I try and get the idea down. Then I look at it, and I actually do mock up pages…try to see how it paces out. What do I need to add? Cut? How wordy am I being?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:21 pm: Zuda has amateur comics in digital format

[Teresa Wymore] 11:21 pm: You can see what’s out there and what your competition is as far as new things

[Teresa Wymore] 11:22 pm: The big houses have their premium titles of course

[Teresa Wymore] 11:22 pm: A lot of artists can make pretty pictures but can they tell a story in sequentials?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:23 pm: Fraser…very like film i’d say

[CindyLynn] 11:23 pm: And Teresa can tell me if I’m right…but I think it takes a bit more patience in some ways to draw whole books. You don’t just draw a pretty picture and you’re done, but it’s repetitive.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:23 pm: In college i worked on other’s projects

[Teresa Wymore] 11:24 pm: The hardest thing for me? Making the character look like the same person in each panel! It’s harder than you think.

[CindyLynn] 11:24 pm: Makes sense.

[Deena] 11:25 pm: That’s the hardest thing for me, and I mean just drawing someone more than once, they don’t look the same.

[Babs M] 11:25 pm: It’s not just superheroes, either. There”s a couple romance lines actively seeking
graphic novels…

[Teresa Wymore] 11:26 pm: Oh my, yes…all kinds of genres

[Teresa Wymore] 11:26 pm: but still, the bulk aimed at young men/boys

[frasersherman] 11:26 pm: And even the mainstream companies have things like Air or Ex Machina

[Teresa Wymore] 11:27 pm: Reminds me….i once had a letter published in Savage Sword of Conan (way back when!) complaining about the women like Red Sonja drawn like a barmaid when she should be a muscled hero like Conan! Twenty-five years later, now’s my chance to bring strong females to life!

[CindyLynn] 11:27 pm: The beauty of it is that there is a lot of room, I think. That’s the first thing a lot of people forget…that it is a medium.

[widdershins] 11:27 pm: From a writing perspective what’s the distillation process from written MS to graphic novel/comic?

[CindyLynn] 11:28 pm: I think one of the important things to note here is that the format is so different when you write it? So there’s not a lot of…for me…distillation per se?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:28 pm: The writer is expected to break up the story into panels. There will be editing to fit pages and artists renderings down the road, but you really have ot know the medium.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:28 pm: You can’t just write a short story and submit.

[CindyLynn] 11:28 pm: Because the directions say something like: PaN 1 Pg 1 we see Cindy doing jumping jacks on a mountain. The mountain is tall and jagged. And so on…the panel is described.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:29 pm: yep

[Babs M] 11:29 pm: more like a script?

[CindyLynn] 11:29 pm: Yes, exactly.

[CindyLynn] 11:29 pm: You have the panel described. then something like:

[CindyLynn] 11:29 pm: Cindy: Wow, what a nice day!

[Teresa Wymore] 11:29 pm: There are some examples online. I don’t have the links, but google

[Deena] 11:29 pm: Sherman mentioned a Scott McCloud book. Scott has a lot of great titles, including Understanding Comics, Reinventing Comics and Making Comics.

[frasersherman] 11:30 pm: He’s really remarkable. And a lot of Understanding Comics I think applies to creative work in general.

[frasersherman] 11:30 pm: I look forward to rereading it and thinking it over some more.

[CindyLynn] 11:30 pm: Also, I really do like “Panel One” by Kurt Busiek.

[Deena] 11:30 pm: Thanks, Cindy. I was going to go back and look for that.

[CindyLynn] 11:31 pm: And the sequel is…wait for it!

[CindyLynn] 11:31 pm: Panel Two

[frasersherman] 11:31 pm: Busiek’s Astro City series is an interesting variation on super-heroics, too: What it’s like from the point of view of the guy on the street watching everything happen.

[Deena] 11:31 pm: Brian Michael Bendis recommends Story: Substance Structure, Style and the Principles of Screen Writing by Robert McKee.

[widdershins] 11:32 pm: @Teresa there’s a couple of strong female lead driven comics out now that I’ve heard of…. Buffy and Batwoman any thoughts about how their longevity?

[frasersherman] 11:32 pm: The new Zatanna series by Paul Dini looks promising. Based on only the first issue, of course.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:32 pm: Buffy has a lot of traction because of the show, of course, and Whedon. I love it, but I’m not sure it’s a great comic

[CindyLynn] 11:33 pm: There’s also Wonderwoman, who has just gotten a recent re-boot. I doubt she’ll ever die.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:33 pm: Batwoman is aimed at the main market I think, despite some unusual story lines.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:33 pm: Death and Sandman are my faves…vertigo and darkhorse pubs

[CindyLynn] 11:34 pm: I would like to mention the comic series Fables, since it has to do with our own Press’s favorite theme…they have some good characters, and interesting twists.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:34 pm: But I do have subs to Buffy and Batwoman!

[frasersherman] 11:34 pm: Fables–I was about to recommend that.

[Deena] 11:34 pm: I love Fables, also Courtney Crumrin.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:34 pm: Yes…was just browsing that today

[CindyLynn] 11:34 pm: I have a very tiny crush on the Big Bad wolf…

[frasersherman] 11:34 pm: Air and House of Mystery, also good.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:35 pm: Black Dossier

[frasersherman] 11:35 pm: Though more of my money goes on collections these days. One of the black and whites gives me way more pages than the same amounts spent on regular monthly books.

[CindyLynn] 11:35 pm: One of my very favorite comics, that I constantly recommend is by Craig Thompson, a large graphic novel called Blankets.

[CindyLynn] 11:36 pm: It’s about being a comic book writer, religious guilt, love….

[David Sklar] 11:36 pm: Has anyone checked out “Daytripper”?

[frasersherman] 11:36 pm: Daytripper?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:36 pm: vertigo title, awesome

[David Sklar] 11:36 pm: It’s a new title from Vertigo–think it’s about 4 or 5 issues in.

[CindyLynn] 11:36 pm: Fraser, I’m the same. I like having them all nice and collected, I fear.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:37 pm: It’s crazy

[frasersherman] 11:37 pm: And with new comics, I can flip through a collection, decide if a promising first issue continued well. And then buy.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:37 pm: I have only 1-2! I lost track

[CindyLynn] 11:38 pm: I live in the sticks, where a comic book shop is really few and far between, so I got into the habit of waiting until they got collected.

[frasersherman] 11:38 pm: Making note to check it out …

[frasersherman] 11:38 pm: I live in a bigger city than I did, but the stores are all further away.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:38 pm: TFAW

[Teresa Wymore] 11:38 pm: I get everything through them

[CindyLynn] 11:38 pm: Ah!

[Teresa Wymore] 11:39 pm: tfaw.com

[widdershins] 11:39 pm: This is a twofer …What separates a graphic novel from a novel/book with pictures eg children’s books? And is the difference between a comic and a graphic novel just a matter of size… I’m assuming it’s not but what do I know!

[Teresa Wymore] 11:40 pm: I think there used to be a difference, but marketing has changed that. long comics and collections are called graphic novel, probably because it sounds more literate

[frasersherman] 11:40 pm: Theoretically, a graphic novel tells a novel-sized story. In marketing and popular usage, a graphic novel and a TPB collection are the same thing.

[frasersherman] 11:40 pm: Or, what Teresa said.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:40 pm: And what Fraser said

[frasersherman] 11:41 pm: But if you look at something like Maus or Alice in Sunderland, you can see a difference.

[Deena] 11:41 pm: A children’s story with pictures is usually one panel per page and much more text.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:41 pm: The explosion of manga has changed all definitions, too

[Teresa Wymore] 11:41 pm: Hate Manga art. Just hate it. Stories are often extraordinary.

[frasersherman] 11:42 pm: Don’t mind manga art if I like the story.

[frasersherman] 11:42 pm: But in comics I’ve always found it easier to endure bad art than a bad story.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:43 pm: Fraser! I’m just the opposite. Probably because I’m shallow by nature

[Deena] 11:44 pm: So once a new author has his or her new graphic novel all planned out, the script written, what do you recommend? They should find an artist to work with? They should submit it to larger publishers? They should try to find an agent?

David Sklar] 11:47 pm: @Deena–it depends a lot on the type of story. If you’re
telling an adventure/action story, then you want to send the script to a publisher
or agent and let them match you with an artist, but if you’re doing an arthouse
story, you want to send it to an arthouse publisher with the art already done.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:44 pm: I don’t want to discourage anyone, and for every rule there’s a rule breaker, but without art, a comic script is not even a short story.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:45 pm: Places like Zuda are begining to feed into the professional level–like the minor leagues. Get a start there, but get an artist

[widdershins] 11:45 pm: @ both Teresa and Fraser …strong feelings about
manga… can you expand on that?

[frasersherman] 11:46 pm: I like some stories. I don’t find the art particularly works for me, but as I said, I can live with that. I don’t read a lot of manga though, simply because there’s so much else I’d sooner read.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:47 pm: I grew up on 70′s comics–Conan, Daredevil, Tarzan. I love the American art form that tries for realism and DETAIL. Detail in scens is the same as detail in story–it makes the world. Manga does without that for the sake of quick devleopment or at worst, poor artistry.

[frasersherman] 11:47 pm: I think part of the appeal is that a lot of it is different in style from what I’d find in an American book.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:48 pm: My nephews love Manga and draw it..is it because they like the form or because it’s easier? I don’t know.

[Deena] 11:48 pm: Thanks, David!

[David Sklar] 11:49 pm: You’re welcome. Mind you, I’ve never successfully sold a
comics script.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:49 pm: Tough market

[frasersherman] 11:49 pm: Going back to the graphic novel/comics difference: One big change in the industry from when I started reading in the sixties is that it’s now possible to end a successful series–12 issues, 60 issues, whatever, it reaches an end point and it’s done. Which has a big change on the shape of storytelling compared to someone like Spider-Man or Batman who keeps going.

[Deena] 11:49 pm: Michael has, but he had an unexpected issue.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:50 pm: Darn!

[Deena] 11:50 pm: So we’re talking to people who’ve tried, which is much more than most of us have done.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:50 pm: Maybe we can ask him to post some thoughts
to questions as a post at Coyote? [Editor's note: We'll ask!]

[CindyLynn] 11:50 pm: It is a tough market. But it’s also very worthwhile.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:51 pm: We can ask real nicely

[frasersherman] 11:51 pm: I submitted a miniseries idea to first comics in the eighties. but when they asked for more information, I realized in hindsight, I didn’t develop the proposal the way I should have.

[Deena] 11:51 pm: how’s that, Fraser?

[frasersherman] 11:52 pm: That is, hindsight, after I’d submitted more information. In the sense that I needed a synopsis and breakdown of the detail and I didn’t give them anything of the sort–more like a back-cover blurb. I think my limits must have been obvious when they read it.

[Deena] 11:52 pm: Cindy, you said it’s very worthwhile. Why? Why should these authors write a comic or a graphic novel?

[CindyLynn] 11:53 pm: It’s worthwhile first, if you’re drawn to it. It’s just the same idea if you only like to write short stories, or if your stories feel more novel length.

[CindyLynn] 11:53 pm: But it’s a completely different way of telling a story.

[CindyLynn] 11:53 pm: Your mind works so differently. And it’s a great genre, with a million possibilities.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:53 pm: Your story will appeal to a new market

[Teresa Wymore] 11:54 pm: You’ll see your world as well as imagine it

[CindyLynn] 11:54 pm: I don’t think it gets used enough…there are great stories that deserve to be told.

[frasersherman] 11:54 pm: And the more fields you can be successful in, the better for your overall career.

[Deena] 11:54 pm: As a publisher, I love the idea of publishing illustrated stories for adults, in this standard format or something else, and an author with a good story and an artist already lined up they worked well with would be wonderful.

[frasersherman] 11:54 pm: And what CindyLynn said.

[Deena] 11:54 pm: Or, like Teresa, both in one person.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:55 pm: I’m not sure I work well with myself

[Deena] 11:55 pm: hee!

[Teresa Wymore] 11:55 pm: Lots of fighting, artistic differences

[David Sklar] 11:55 pm: Are there any plans to open Drollerie up to comics?

[Deena] 11:55 pm: Yes, actually.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:55 pm: YESSSSSS!

[David Sklar] 11:55 pm: Ooooooh!

[Deena] 11:56 pm: I’ve been trying to for the last year. Teresa’s the first person who brought me a proposal I could love.

[frasersherman] 11:56 pm: Interesting.

[Deena] 11:56 pm: I think the genres we represent would make great graphic stories.

[CindyLynn] 11:57 pm: What do you need to submit?

[frasersherman] 11:57 pm: I agree.

[Deena] 11:57 pm: Best would be the whole thing, art and all.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:57 pm: Yes, and YA graphic novels are really booming,aren’t they?

[Deena] 11:57 pm: Second best would be the story, with some idea of the style of art you want.

[Deena] 11:57 pm: Yes, they are Teresa, and we do love our YA.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:58 pm: I wish I could write something besides smut

[widdershins] 11:58 pm: how will it work with all the versions of e-readers, given the quality of their graphics is so varied?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:58 pm: Okay, I really don’t

[widdershins] 11:58 pm: @Teresa…. smut sells

[Teresa Wymore] 11:58 pm: I thought quality was pretty good across the board, just different format sizes?

[Deena] 11:58 pm: Wid, graphic novels, for us, will probably start in PDF and be available in print on demand.

[Deena] 11:58 pm: Not really, Teresa, some don’t even accept images.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:58 pm: Really???

[Deena] 11:59 pm: Yes, really.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:59 pm: I use my iPod. What do I know?

[Deena] 11:59 pm: Then we’ll do Apple and epub.

[Deena] 11:59 pm: We probably won’t do the other formats at all.

[widdershins] 11:59 pm: yeah… you’ve gotta read the fine print on the media blitzes

[Deena] 12:00 am: I think formatting for smaller readers, iphones, and so on, will be a challenge, but doable. It won’t be exactly the traditional format.

[Deena] 12:00 am: probably one panel per page, and no full-page panels at all, so some won’t work for smaller readers.

[Teresa Wymore] 12:00 am: I view comics on my iPhone all the time…pdf/whole page is best but some presses are doing the panel-by-opanel. It all works well

[Teresa Wymore] 12:01 am: Not sure I like those panel-by-panel…you miss the organic page and panel interactions

[Deena] 12:01 am: Teresa, I wish you could send me a screenshot somehow.

[Teresa Wymore] 12:01 am: But big houses have all done them

[Teresa Wymore] 12:01 am: I’ll find a recent one

[Teresa Wymore] 12:02 am: I can screenshot anything on the iPhone

[frasersherman] 12:02 am: I agree, Teresa. To work best you’d have to write it differently–the way a daily comic-strip is paced differently from a comic-book.

[Deena] 12:02 am: I like the full page best, because, as Teresa mentioned, there’s tension between the panels, and you lose that when you go too micro.

[Deena] 12:02 am: Obviously, we’re working out details, and new options are opening up all the time.

[widdershins] 12:03 am: it’s like there’s this wild frontier happening with the e-world.. its wonderful

[Deena] 12:03 am: It’s pretty nifty.

[frasersherman] 12:04 am: It certainly opens a lot more venues for being published in.

[Teresa Wymore] 12:04 am: Totally

[Deena] 12:04 am: Thanks Teresa, Fraser, Cindy, and David. Thank you everyone for coming.

[Teresa Wymore] 12:04 am: Thanks!

[frasersherman] 12:04 am: My pleasure.

[CindyLynn] 12:04 am: Thank you. It’s always wonderful to get to do these sorts of things.

[frasersherman] 12:05 am: And good night.

[Deena] 9:01 pm: It’s time to start. We’re talking about Writing to Scare People with Scott Nicholson.

[scottnicholson] 9:01 pm: Wait, I thought this was writing to scare writers…

[Deena] 9:01 pm: heh.

[scottnicholson] 9:01 pm: two words: “PUBLISHING INDUSTRY!”

[scottnicholson] 9:02 pm: talk about yer bone-chillin horror.

[scottnicholson] 9:02 pm: I’ll start by assuming we all love good food and horror fiction

[scottnicholson] 9:03 pm: horror has changed a lot in the last 30 years

[scottnicholson] 9:04 pm: I think the influence of serial killer and torture horror has definitely altered the genre and its perception by audiences and publishers

[scottnicholson] 9:04 pm: the quiet supernatural stuff is rarer

[scottnicholson] 9:04 pm: and obviously vampires and zombies and werewolves take turns being hot

[scottnicholson] 9:05 pm: and a lot of horror is just an excuse for erotica

[scottnicholson] 9:05 pm: how about we open up for questions? So I can tell what you guys are interested in

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:07 pm: I’m planning a YA steampunk and am wondering just how much horror is appropriate for teens. I recall the movie last year that was so popular and spurred sequels – but didn’t see it. Would, for example, a serial killer be accepted in YA?

[scottnicholson] 9:08 pm: the boundaries are wide open in YA

[scottnicholson] 9:08 pm: there is still a sensibility to be maintained, but it’s not the emotional tone

[scottnicholson] 9:08 pm: it’s how graphic the depiction is

[scottnicholson] 9:09 pm: you can have, for example, teens hooking up, which was unthinkable in the YA books of my youth

[scottnicholson] 9:09 pm: but you can’t have the blow-by-blow if that makes sense

[scottnicholson] 9:09 pm: really, I find the YA is more “mature” in its emotional content than the adult fiction I read, so just sample around.

[widdershins] 9:09 pm: Do you think the connection between horror and erotica has grown out from violence in porn? Or connected to the two?

[scottnicholson] 9:10 pm: no wid I think the use of vampires and werewolves as fantasy objects are just another form of escapism

[scottnicholson] 9:10 pm: it’s almost safer to fantasize about a hot zombie love than your real fantasy about the boss

[scottnicholson] 9:11 pm: I don’t read widely in the paranormal romance but it rarely seems that violent to me

[kris M] 9:11 pm: Mine kinda goes with widder — horror — erotica? I’m confused what you mean

[scottnicholson] 9:11 pm: Twilight

[scottnicholson] 9:12 pm: lighter romance but still, the idea of interspecial love

[scottnicholson] 9:12 pm: getting it on with critters of the night

[kris M] 9:12 pm: oh I was thinking chainsaw massacre….hehe

[zan] 9:12 pm: I want a more subtle scare something to make them wake up later thinking about it and getting scared How would you handle something like that

[scottnicholson] 9:12 pm: well to me ghosts are scarier than just about anything

[scottnicholson] 9:13 pm: maybe it’s because they can go so many ways

[scottnicholson] 9:13 pm: I mean, you can argue vampires, zombies, wwolves etc are scary

[scottnicholson] 9:13 pm: but to me, they aren’t likely to show up at my bedroom window

[scottnicholson] 9:13 pm: a ghost, who can say?

[scottnicholson] 9:14 pm: so zan, just look for atmosphere and effect and the psychology of the character

[scottnicholson] 9:14 pm: trouble is, a lot of readers equate that with “slow” fiction

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:14 pm: Are you saying you can have sex in YA, just not described in detail? I’ve started reading YA steampunk but so far haven’t come across any relationships. However, back to the scary, I like things like foreshadowing, the kind that makes you turn on all the lights. It’s scarier than a movie with loud music signaling the scary part.

[scottnicholson] 9:15 pm: Jazzy, yes, just read around–they are pretty explicit in subject matter–again, it’s being honest about what real teens are doing

[scottnicholson] 9:15 pm: the old days of teen books having to pass the “smell test” of adults is over

[scottnicholson] 9:15 pm: of course, you may have to adjust considering the needs of your publisher

[scottnicholson] 9:16 pm: my acid test is “Would I feel comfortable letting my daughter read this?”

[spot_writes] 9:16 pm: I really like it when a writer comes up with a new idea, yet I know how rare that is. So if a writer is going to write something that’s been done before (ie: haunted house) I feel like they should raise the bar and really try to do it better than anyone else has. I’m dissapointed a lot in some of the fiction I read. How do you (personally) go about setting yourself apart from what’s been done? I want to be scared so badly that I turn the light on in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom.

[spot_writes] 9:16 pm: And that’s the kind of horror I want to write.

[scottnicholson] 9:17 pm: Hmm spot to me I just go into the psychology of the characters, which is why I almost always use shifting third-person POV

[scottnicholson] 9:17 pm: to see how different people experience the same effects or events

[scottnicholson] 9:17 pm: that’s a good bar to set, to do the best book that’s been done in the area

[scottnicholson] 9:18 pm: but if you write true to the things that scare you, you’ll probably succeed

[FrancesP] 9:18 pm: With the new “paranormal” genre books, I wonder sometimes why no one classifies them as just a resurgence of Gothic… is Gothic just an out of date term, or is there a significant difference, ie: perhaps the scare element that Gothic always had. And if we’ve taken the scare out and the result is that kind of popularity, how is the horror genre doing right now?

[scottnicholson] 9:19 pm: “Gothic” as a term got co-opted as an underground culture

[scottnicholson] 9:19 pm: at least in people’s minds, it means eyeliner and black leather and corsets

[FrancesP] 9:19 pm: so I’m just old. figures.

[riversway] 9:19 pm: HI Scott, I’m not interested in horror, but I like a story that builds with tension. to me, that is far more adrenaline popping than horror.

[scottnicholson] 9:19 pm: I think horror is kind of broad and rich, but not a huge fiction audience

[scottnicholson] 9:20 pm: I agree–I like the build-up

[scottnicholson] 9:20 pm: I;m a slow zombie guy, I don’t like them running around fast with cars and machine guns

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:20 pm: Considering the so-called “slow” foreshadowing, just think about Psycho and the slow ascent up the stairs. Is there anything scarier than that? I have a cozy humorous mystery I’m working on but I want at least one scene that would scare the living daylights out of the reader.

[Deena] 9:20 pm: I find the idea of fast zombies so much scarier.

[scottnicholson] 9:21 pm: Jazzy people aren’t as patient as they used to be!

[widdershins] 9:21 pm: I think I’m mired in the need for a definition here…. what defines horror in SF and Fantasy? Texas Chainsaw Massacre style or Twilight paranormal, or 2001 space opera? … ties in with Frances’ question I think.

[scottnicholson] 9:21 pm: this is the Twitter horror age–scare them in 140 words

[scottnicholson] 9:21 pm: definitions have killed the genre in a way

[scottnicholson] 9:22 pm: all that is rubbish spawned by a publishing industry

[scottnicholson] 9:22 pm: looking for easy slots to dump a book in

[scottnicholson] 9:22 pm: because they are all lazy

[scottnicholson] 9:22 pm: I understand it from a business perspective, because books are unique products but have a short shelf life

[scottnicholson] 9:23 pm: it’s not like building a brand of Luck’s Beans over 40 years or something

[scottnicholson] 9:23 pm: Look at Aliens

[scottnicholson] 9:23 pm: they call it sci-fi but it’s scarier than almost every horror movie out there

[scottnicholson] 9:23 pm: genuinely frightening and tense

[scottnicholson] 9:23 pm: lots of shocks but also a build-up of suspense

[scottnicholson] 9:24 pm: the labels are arbitrary and getting less significant as the markets fracture

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:24 pm: They don’t know what they’re missing. I like a book that has me on the edge of my seat all the way to the end. It’s sort of on a par with nickel and diming you to death – little bits by little bits, each one building the suspense.

[widdershins] 9:25 pm: Thats what the industry has created but what do YOU think it is?

[scottnicholson] 9:26 pm: horror may be different from fear

[scottnicholson] 9:26 pm: horror also includes shock

[scottnicholson] 9:26 pm: terror

[scottnicholson] 9:26 pm: psychological threat

[scottnicholson] 9:26 pm: it is an element and a tone that appears in many genres and brands of fiction

[scottnicholson] 9:27 pm: Scooby Doo, Belle, Harry Potter, and Dracula all at the same party

[scottnicholson] 9:27 pm: horror doesn’t work as a marketing label

[scottnicholson] 9:27 pm: and the torture stuff in movies certainly didn’t help fiction labeled “horror”

[scottnicholson] 9:28 pm: I’ve heard it a thousand times

[scottnicholson] 9:28 pm: “I like Stephen King but I don’t like horror”

[scottnicholson] 9:28 pm: that sort of thing

[scottnicholson] 9:28 pm: people love to be scared

[scottnicholson] 9:28 pm: but only a fraction love to be spewed with blood and gore

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:29 pm: Is there a difference between thriller and horror, or are they the same?

[scottnicholson] 9:30 pm: thrillers can be horrifying and horror can be thrilling but they are also different

[scottnicholson] 9:30 pm: how’s that for a cop-out?

[scottnicholson] 9:30 pm: again, it’s just labels

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:30 pm: LOL

[scottnicholson] 9:30 pm: Silence of the Lambs–thriller or horror? Clearly both

[scottnicholson] 9:30 pm: thriller as a label has certain conventions

[scottnicholson] 9:31 pm: ticking clock, big scale, usually science or espionage or politics

[scottnicholson] 9:31 pm: sells tons

[scottnicholson] 9:31 pm: usually pretty shallow in characterization

[scottnicholson] 9:31 pm: my faves, WIlliam Goldman, Ira Levin, Thomas Harris, they can do both

[scottnicholson] 9:32 pm: but all that is industry labels emerging from the last 20 years

[scottnicholson] 9:32 pm: it all used to be just books

[scottnicholson] 9:32 pm: storytelling is the key

[scottnicholson] 9:32 pm: interestingly, a lot of books that fell between the cracks or couldn’t fit a neat publisher slot are doing well as indie books

[spot_writes] 9:34 pm: OMG. I worked in a bookstore for many years and I heard people say that all the time “I like Stephen King, but I don’t like horror”. Of course, these were the same people who read every book Oprah told them too. (sorry, I’m told I’m a bit of a book snob). How can they not think of Stephen King as horror?? He
makes me leave the lights on.

[scottnicholson] 9:34 pm: because “horror” is that stuff with knives

[scottnicholson] 9:34 pm: Freddy and Jason

[scottnicholson] 9:35 pm: that’s what it is in the public’s mind, especially the book-buying public

[scottnicholson] 9:35 pm: that’s why “horror” as a genre doesn’t really exist anymore as a label

[scottnicholson] 9:35 pm: even Leisure quit using it

[Deena] 9:35 pm: What do they call it now?

[spot_writes] 9:35 pm: oh my. So the public really is just as silly as my hubby’s been telling me they are for years? Damn. I hate it when he’s right.

[scottnicholson] 9:35 pm: Fiction

[Deena] 9:35 pm: huh.

[scottnicholson] 9:35 pm: Spot, let’s give them the benfit of a doubt

[scottnicholson] 9:36 pm: publishers certainly haven’t helped educate or build the genre

[scottnicholson] 9:36 pm: and writers are stuck having to say “I don’t write horror”

[Deena] 9:36 pm: Pam, what was your question?

[PTurner] 9:36 pm: What about publishing thrillers in short/novella form, ebooks, digital etc.? Is that possible, or is it traditional print only? I’m thinking since a lot of paranormal is published this way, along w/urban fantasy.

[scottnicholson] 9:37 pm: sure in e-books there is no artifical word count

[scottnicholson] 9:37 pm: publishers set this odd 80-100k word thing based on the number of copies they can fit in a shipping carton

[scottnicholson] 9:38 pm: that’s all about distribution and 48 to a case, not art or craft or storytelling

[scottnicholson] 9:38 pm: look at all the great novels that are 40-50k

[scottnicholson] 9:38 pm: that will definitely change with the ebook era

[scottnicholson] 9:38 pm: along with plenty of other things such as narrow labels

[PTurner] 9:39 pm: Glad to hear it. I write short, 40k on average.

[scottnicholson] 9:39 pm: my short story collections do way better in ebooks than they did in paper

[scottnicholson] 9:39 pm: but a lot of that is price

[alicats] 9:40 pm: Is there any room in the genre for the sympathetic monster anymore? ie: Frankenstein, even Lestat and Lecter? (apart from erotica) It seems even King and Koontz are leaning toward the relentlessly evil bad guy.

[scottnicholson] 9:40 pm: I haven’t read Koontz’s Frankenstein but I understand that monster takes the choice of being good

[scottnicholson] 9:40 pm: rising above his nature

[scottnicholson] 9:41 pm: funny but Koontz always lets ordinary folks “rise up” to overcome but his evil forces are just evil and that’s that–no hope for redemption, only extermination

[scottnicholson] 9:42 pm: seems the werewolves and zombies are already going over to sympathetic characters, too

[scottnicholson] 9:42 pm: becoming almost parodies

[scottnicholson] 9:42 pm: I mean, zombie romance?

[scottnicholson] 9:42 pm: “ooh baby, eat me” takes on a whole new meaning

[alicats] 9:42 pm: my sentiments exactly LOL.. sorry

[spot_writes] 9:42 pm: LMAO.

[ninjabarb] 9:42 pm: LOL

[widdershins] 9:42 pm: ROLF

[ninjabarb] 9:43 pm: Scott’s right. When I teach horror, my students think horror = slasher flick. They don’t even pause to think about things like Silence of the Lambs or Alien or A History of Violence. Maybe because horror really isn’t precisely a genre. It’s a story, any story, that creates and sustains dread. That can be quiet dread like in King’s “The Reach” or loud messy dread like in Barker “Dread.”

[scottnicholson] 9:43 pm: Great insight, Barb

[scottnicholson] 9:43 pm: it’s way to big to fit in one box

[ninjabarb] 9:43 pm: @ alicats Urban fantasy and paranormal romance have definitely romanticized a lot of the classic monsters.

[scottnicholson] 9:43 pm: and some of it is the age of the writers

[scottnicholson] 9:44 pm: I edited Grave Conditions, with some great writers, Keene, Maberry, Konrath

[scottnicholson] 9:44 pm: lots of comics stories

[scottnicholson] 9:44 pm: but most was killer/slasher stuff

[scottnicholson] 9:44 pm: I was surprised to get hardly any supernatural stories

[scottnicholson] 9:44 pm: it’s all great but it really jumped out at me

[scottnicholson] 9:45 pm: I wanted a Creepy/Eerie/Tales from the Crypt vibe

[scottnicholson] 9:45 pm: but it became its own thing, 21st Century horror

[scottnicholson] 9:46 pm: I guess I don’t mean “age” so much as the influences of the writers

[scottnicholson] 9:46 pm: there’s less King influence and more Thomas Harris and Freddy Krueger

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:46 pm: I’m thinking of King’s Misery, which was one of the scariest books/movies ever. It also brought in the idea of writer’s block, at least to me. I couldn’t write under those circumstances. His jailer was really horrible. A very creepy story.

[scottnicholson] 9:47 pm: (deena, we’ll have the fast v slow zombie debate some other time…)

[Deena] 9:47 pm: That was one of my scariest stories ever.

[Deena] 9:47 pm: heh. You’re on, Scott.

[scottnicholson] 9:47 pm: Misery is probably my favorite King

[scottnicholson] 9:47 pm: yet it has no supernatural elements!

[scottnicholson] 9:47 pm: and I agree, probably his scariest

[spot_writes] 9:47 pm: nope. duma key was his scariest or the shining.

[spot_writes] 9:47 pm: So do you think that supernatural horror is going by the wayside?

[spot_writes] 9:47 pm: I hope not, since that’s what I prefer to write.

[scottnicholson] 9:48 pm: no, Spot I think supernatural is alive and well

[scottnicholson] 9:48 pm: there’s strong interest in the paranormal

[scottnicholson] 9:48 pm: everybody loves a good ghost story

[scottnicholson] 9:48 pm: it’s the marketing that’s killed it

[scottnicholson] 9:48 pm: but in the indie era, that choice will be there

[scottnicholson] 9:49 pm: NY publishers need books that sell 20,000 copies at least

[scottnicholson] 9:49 pm: but you can be successful with a few thousand copies as an indie

[scottnicholson] 9:49 pm: that market is there

[scottnicholson] 9:50 pm: spot haven’t read Duma Key but the Shining is up there for sure

[scottnicholson] 9:50 pm: but as you pointed out, horror is personal–to me, the #1 fan, the imprisonment, the writers block–and having to BURN YOUR MANUSCRIPT–are all horrible!

[Jazzyartwriter2] 9:50 pm: Am I wrong in characterizing Misery as being in the more subtle class, rather than the loud, everything happens fast one?

[scottnicholson] 9:51 pm: Misery had a buildup, dread of what was going to happen next

[scottnicholson] 9:51 pm: I hate to keep using movies but this happens in books too

[scottnicholson] 9:51 pm: how many times have you seen the five or seven teens show up

[scottnicholson] 9:51 pm: and you already know all but two will die

[scottnicholson] 9:52 pm: and you really don’t care which ones it is

[scottnicholson] 9:52 pm: that’s all that is wrong with modern horror

[scottnicholson] 9:52 pm: nobody cares

[scottnicholson] 9:52 pm: they go through the motions, even the audience

[widdershins] 9:53 pm: Desensitised by… if you’ll pardon the pun… overkill

[widdershins] 9:53 pm: thangyouverymuch

[ninjabarb] 9:53 pm: Someone, perhaps King, said that horror tends to thrive when times are good. Do you think maybe it’s struggling and taking new forms now because there are high levels of anxiety already in the world? That is we don’t want to be constantly grappling with our fears?

[scottnicholson] 9:54 pm: maybe but all that is too simple

[scottnicholson] 9:54 pm: when have times ever been easy?

[scottnicholson] 9:54 pm: the good ol’ days when blacks were strung up by lynch mobs?

[scottnicholson] 9:54 pm: or you could beat your wife because she was “property”?

[scottnicholson] 9:55 pm: life sucks, life is hard, and humans are insane

[ninjabarb] 9:55 pm: All very true.

[scottnicholson] 9:55 pm: I feel fiction is catharsis

[scottnicholson] 9:55 pm: I’m happier than almost anyone I know

[scottnicholson] 9:55 pm: because I can dump it all out there on a page and walk away whistling

[scottnicholson] 9:56 pm: yet some people think i “must be creepy”

[scottnicholson] 9:56 pm: I think storytelling’s job is to teach us

[scottnicholson] 9:56 pm: about ourselves, why we are here, and what we can do to get better

[scottnicholson] 9:56 pm: good horror can do that

[scottnicholson] 9:57 pm: another reason I love the supernatural;, because you can really address those core questions of faith and meaning.

[ninjabarb] 9:59 pm: Those are the sorts of horror I tend to enjoy best for exactly the same reasons. I
wonder what it says that most people read horror more now as punishment or revenge fantasies.

[scottnicholson] 10:00 pm: interesting barb, you should write essays on this stuff

[scottnicholson] 10:00 pm: there’s also a bit of masochism in a lot of it

[scottnicholson] 10:00 pm: despair

[scottnicholson] 10:00 pm: I mean, zombie fiction is all pretty much one-way

[scottnicholson] 10:01 pm: I’ve not given much thought to the revenge angle

[widdershins] 10:02 pm: ok…. fast and slow zombies … what gives?

[Deena] 10:02 pm: heh.

[Deena] 10:02 pm: Fast zombies are terrifying.

[scottnicholson] 10:02 pm: ok, to me the most chilling thing about zombies is the slow, persistent, keep-after-ya attitudes

[scottnicholson] 10:03 pm: shambling, unstoppable, hungry

[Deena] 10:03 pm: But if they’re slow, you have time to dismember them!

[widdershins] 10:03 pm: does that make the Terminator a zombie?

[scottnicholson] 10:03 pm: if they are fast it’s just too much like just another shootemup movie to me

[scottnicholson] 10:03 pm: another bug hunt

[scottnicholson] 10:03 pm: “Huh oh here come’s the military”

[Deena] 10:03 pm: huh. I have to concede that point.

[scottnicholson] 10:03 pm: yes Deena but they KEEP coming

[scottnicholson] 10:04 pm: sure, maybe the fast ones do too, but they kill you before you have time to dread it

[scottnicholson] 10:04 pm: slow zombies allow for dread and suspense

[Deena] 10:04 pm: Yes. I suddenly pictured slowly squirming fingers with the shambling unstoppable… so okay. You might win. But I don’t scream at slow zombies.

[Deena] 10:04 pm: You might be right.

[Deena] 10:04 pm: Widdershin asked: Is the terminator a kind of zombie?

[scottnicholson] 10:04 pm: well I wouldn’t tell you what to like

[scottnicholson] 10:05 pm: I just know what I like

[scottnicholson] 10:05 pm: Night of the Living Dead–THAT’s a horror movie

[Deena] 10:05 pm: I think it was my first, actually. It was pretty freaky.

[scottnicholson] 10:05 pm: yeah I could see the Term as a zombie

[scottnicholson] 10:05 pm: but I can’t get past the machine thing

[scottnicholson] 10:05 pm: he’s alien to me

[scottnicholson] 10:05 pm: like the creatures in Aliens

[scottnicholson] 10:06 pm: he reasons too much

[scottnicholson] 10:06 pm: calculates

[scottnicholson] 10:06 pm: I like zombie as a brainless dread

[zan] 10:06 pm: Since the traditional way to make zombies involves the poison from the blowfish, which paralyzes, slow is the only way to work.

[widdershins] 10:07 pm: the term and zombie both follow their programming…. nothing more

[scottnicholson] 10:07 pm: hmm interesting

[scottnicholson] 10:07 pm: I’m convinced..somewhat

[Deena] 10:07 pm: I think part of the horror of zombies is that they’re supposed to be humans. Loved
ones. People we know.

[Deena] 10:08 pm: And then suddenly they’re not.

[scottnicholson] 10:08 pm: well and that whole paranoia of the other, too

[Deena] 10:08 pm: The terminator maybe taps into that, with the human disguises.

[scottnicholson] 10:08 pm: invasion of the body snatchers

[scottnicholson] 10:08 pm: “But for the grace of God go I…” or whatever

[Deena] 10:08 pm: oh yeah. That was cool. Stepford wives?

[scottnicholson] 10:09 pm: Stepford was awesome until they tried to turn it into a parody

[spot_writes] 10:09 pm: Sort of off topic, sort of not…Do you know that there are people who didn’t know that “I am Legend” was a book before the will smith movie?! And that they didn’t know about the two previous movies made from it or even who Richard Matheson was?? Luckily, my boss at the bookstore liked it when I was sarcastic…

[scottnicholson] 10:09 pm: you can’t make a parody out of social commentary

[scottnicholson] 10:09 pm: well it’s an “age” thing

[Deena] 10:09 pm: Heh. Spot. Greg is laughing. I think he likes that too.

[scottnicholson] 10:09 pm: this is an era when people think Speilberg invented “War of the Worlds”

[spot_writes] 10:10 pm: It’s sad…

[scottnicholson] 10:10 pm: It was “Will Smith’s I am Legend”

[scottnicholson] 10:10 pm: Spielberg’s “War of the Worlds”

[scottnicholson] 10:10 pm: no wonder people get confused

[Deena] 10:10 pm: You said earlier that supernatural horror allows you to address the concepts of faith
and meaning. Can you talk about that a little more, if you have time?

[scottnicholson] 10:10 pm: well, maybe it’s not so sad

[zan] 10:10 pm: Not at all to be confused with the original story

[scottnicholson] 10:10 pm: maybe we are just crotchety old farts who like books

[widdershins] 10:10 pm: Charlton Heston’s The Omega Man … same story

[FrancesP] 10:11 pm: But, “Bram Stoker’s Dracula” was NOT Bram Stoker’s Dracula.

[scottnicholson] 10:11 pm: lol

[spot_writes] 10:11 pm: Vincent price in the original I Am Legend

[Deena] 10:11 pm: I’m not crotchety. Much.

[scottnicholson] 10:11 pm: yeah now THAT to me was the original Romero style zombie

[spot_writes] 10:11 pm: And I’m not old…ish.

[zan] 10:12 pm: OK I am old

[widdershins] 10:12 pm: but hey … we all … er….. do stuff with out intestinal gasses

[scottnicholson] 10:12 pm: a few of those old 30s zombie movies were pretty creepy but not as menacing

[Deena] 10:14 pm: Greg asked me to ask my question again: You said earlier that supernatural horror
allows you to address the concepts of faith and meaning. Can you talk about that a little more, if you
have time?

[ninjabarb] 10:14 pm: @Deena For me. in most horror, the good is challenged by an incursion of
something bad. Facing the bad both external and internal tries characters’ souls. In the end, we like to
have good take the day. Horror stories tend to be moral at their heart. Mostly.

[Deena] 10:15 pm: Barb, that makes sense.

[scottnicholson] 10:15 pm: sure, Deena–my first novel was about a haunted church. The Red Church had a shape-shifting preacher open to interpretation–the devil? A demon? a golem?

[Deena] 10:15 pm: I remember that one.

[scottnicholson] 10:16 pm: and there’s a 13 yr old boy raised Baptist

[scottnicholson] 10:16 pm: now confronted with all these things while trying to make sense of “Jesus in his heart”

[scottnicholson] 10:16 pm: I mean, just Jesus is scary enough

[scottnicholson] 10:16 pm: and now you have a haunted church?

[scottnicholson] 10:17 pm: so that’s the type of thing I like to challenge

[scottnicholson] 10:17 pm: in the reader

[Deena] 10:17 pm: Thanks, that’s interesting.

[scottnicholson] 10:17 pm: barb, I agree-horror is incredibly conservative

[scottnicholson] 10:17 pm: we expect good to win

[Deena] 10:17 pm: It resonated with me a little more than with Greg, I think, different backgrounds. The
whole “what if I don’t do this right?” thing was a big fear for me as a kid.

[scottnicholson] 10:17 pm: we expect the two virgin teens to emerge from the slaughter house

[Deena] 10:18 pm: But they’re never fat, ugly, geeky, or unpopular kids.

[scottnicholson] 10:18 pm: Deena, good old-time fear-religion has gone out of fashion…

[Deena] 10:18 pm: (sorry… thinking too hard)

[ninjabarb] 10:19 pm: They’re also not the ones who are drinking hard or screwing around.

[Deena] 10:19 pm: I’ve heard that Scott, probably because us old farts got sick of it.

[scottnicholson] 10:19 pm: In Drummer Boy, it’s not really faith I used but belonging

[scottnicholson] 10:19 pm: 13 yr old kid coming out as gay

[scottnicholson] 10:19 pm: to him, the supernatural makes more sense than THIS world where he doesn’t belong

[widdershins] 10:19 pm: because then.. then virgin queens… er I mean, teens would have no purpose

[scottnicholson] 10:19 pm: those types of “meaning” questions

[scottnicholson] 10:20 pm: moral lesson sin horror

[scottnicholson] 10:20 pm: usually the ones that survive were the first ones I wanted to die!

[ninjabarb] 10:21 pm: LOL. Me too, Scott.

[widdershins] 10:21 pm: and no matter how many times you tell ‘em not to, they still open the door

[scottnicholson] 10:21 pm: ok I will be back tomorrow night

[zan] 10:21 pm: Thanks for a great time

[scottnicholson] 10:22 pm: hopefully with some friends

[scottnicholson] 10:22 pm: to tackle 21st century publishing…

[scottnicholson] 10:22 pm: hope you guys can make it

[spot_writes] 10:22 pm: Thanks Scott! Will you be at any conventions in the near future?

[scottnicholson] 10:22 pm: thanks, I learned a lot, you have given me much to think about

[widdershins] 10:22 pm: yep…. I fnally decided to enter the 21st century this year

[scottnicholson] 10:22 pm: spot, I don’t know, trying to go to Killer Nashville

Deena] 10:23 pm: Goodnight everyone! I’ll see you all in about a half hour.

[scottnicholson] 10:23 pm: I do comic cons in NC

[widdershins] 10:23 pm: see ya then

[scottnicholson] 10:23 pm: that’s about all I can afford at the moment

[scottnicholson] 10:23 pm: good night all

[PTurner] 10:23 pm: Thanks for a great session! Bye, everyone. Back to work. LOL

[spot_writes] 10:24 pm: Night!

[ninjabarb] 10:24 pm: Night, and thanks.

[Deena] 7:14 pm: I’m going to start by talking about some basic issues, and then we’ll just talk about whatever else springs to mind.

[Deena] 7:14 pm: There are a number of places where authors get cultural things wrong.
1. Whitewashing the world.
2. Everyone’s a sidekick.
3. Anyone non-white is evil, stupid, or a victim.
4. Everyone non-white is there to teach the white guy how to win.

White washing the world happens in a lot of books. Every character is white. Skin color isn’t mentioned, or if there’s a token black, Asian, or other race of person, there’s only one, skin color and other characteristics are written as if they’re odd, different, unusual or “exotic”.

[Deena] 7:17 pm: Some books have a reasonable complement of characters, but the hero is white. He or she has friends, at least one or two, that are black or asian or some other race, but they don’t often meet bystanders of other races, and these sidekick characters never star.

[Deena] 7:18 pm: There’s nothing wrong with writing a book with a white hero or heroine. What’s wrong is that they shouldn’t be the only books published, and the sidekicks should have their own lines, agenda, issues. Avoid stereotypes. Think about those characters when they’re not with the hero.

[Deena] 7:18 pm: #3 is just about stereotypes. What do you think of when you see the phrase “exotic almond eyes”?

[Deena] 7:19 pm: You can actually talk a little if you want to. It won’t throw me off.

[Deena] 7:19 pm: or not too much.

[Deena] 7:19 pm: Basically, with #4, not every black male is 16-45, wearing his pants around his knees, shooting people and stealing off a truck, or selling drugs, or what have you. Not every asian female is an old witch or a femme fatale.

[alicats] 7:20 pm: actually, i first pictured an African-American, but I think you’re hinting at Asian

[Deena] 7:20 pm: You guys know this, but sometimes it’s easy to slip into those things.

[zan] 7:20 pm: Even the best authors writing about a certain race ie Hillerman on the Navajos get things wrong that those of us who live around them know. In this case Navajos Have NO PROFANITY and in one of his books his main charactor cursed in Navajo out loud.

[Deena] 7:20 pm: Yes, ali, that’s the stereotype.

[Deena] 7:20 pm: Zan, I missed that, and I used to read Hillerman like clockwork.

[Deena] 7:21 pm: I’m wondering how many people have almond-shaped eyes… I mean, aren’t they all pretty much like that?

[Deena] 7:21 pm: Not every black woman is a hooker, a maid, or a grandma taking care of her abandoned grandchildren. Or, god forbid, a “welfare queen”.

[Deena] 7:22 pm: There’s no such thing as a welfare queen anymore!!

[Deena] 7:22 pm: And lots of people of all races get help with their bills, or their food, or what have you.

[Deena] 7:22 pm: (I get a little excited about the welfare queen thing.)

[Deena] 7:23 pm: The last point on the list there (which is really simplified, there are lots more), is the nice lady in the Matrix movies.

[widdershins] 7:23 pm: which one… they were all pretty hot

[Deena] 7:23 pm: It’s the wise old shaman.

[Deena] 7:23 pm: Heh.

[widdershins] 7:23 pm: her too

[Deena] 7:23 pm: The old one. The one who told Neo he wasn’t the one.

[ourladyofashes] 7:24 pm: The Oracle.

[ourladyofashes] 7:24 pm: Magical Negro.

[ourladyofashes] 7:24 pm: Or that’s the name I was taught for that stereotype.

[Deena] 7:24 pm: Native American Shamans, the old Karate Kid wax-on, wax-off guy.

[ourladyofashes] 7:24 pm: Mister Miyagi!

[Deena] 7:25 pm: Yes, ashes, that is the name. The magical negro, or it’s sometimes referred these days as “Our Exceptional African American Friend” or something similar.

[Deena] 7:25 pm: Those kinds of stories, in my opinion, really cross the line into cultural appropriation. The Last Samurai. The white hero who has to come in and save the native people. Agh.

[Deena] 7:26 pm: Obviously, I’m all over the place, in part because I didn’t think I’d have to be doing this, and in part because I get a little excited about it.

[Deena] 7:26 pm: So, let’s talk a bit about cultural appropriation.

[Deena] 7:27 pm: When I was in college, my African American Lit professor–who said that she was the “token black woman” in her department–said no white person should write a book with characters of other races.

[Deena] 7:27 pm: So, I was a little surprised, some … mumble years down the line, and having taken that for gospel… that a lot of people don’t feel that way.

[Deena] 7:28 pm: I’ve come to some conclusion, and I may be wrong, but it’s working for me now.

[zan] 7:28 pm: I don’t agree I know Navajos have lived around them all my life I think I could write them

[Deena] 7:28 pm: Basically, the world is full of other people besides fat white women (thank heavens!). And I can’t just write about copies of myself. For one thing, they’re not likely to sell.

[Deena] 7:28 pm: Zan, yes!

[Deena] 7:28 pm: It’s about knowing the culture, being respectful, and writing from the inside, not the outside.

[widdershins] 7:29 pm: a different interpretation of “write what you know”

[Deena] 7:29 pm: Okay, we’ve talked about the big black marks. Let’s talk about what works. What we do to make sure we’re aware and inclusive.

[Deena] 7:30 pm: Yeah, Widder. I think “write what you know” has become a club against the sides of our heads, and it shouldn’t be.

[Deena] 7:30 pm: Especially not for speculative fiction writers! We’re not serial killers, monsters, aliens, faeries! We can’t write what we know and survive in this genre.

[Deena] 7:30 pm: Okay, free-for-all time.

[Deena] 7:31 pm: Let’s share techniques, issues, concerns. Ask questions of one another.

[Deena] 7:31 pm: Peaches, have you written anything with characters of another race or culture from your own? How did you approach it?

[PeachesNCream] 7:32 pm: A bit of native American after I grilled a friend, LOL

[PeachesNCream] 7:32 pm: Actually, I have a question…How is not mentioning race concidered whitewashing?

[Deena] 7:32 pm: Do you feel like you got it “right”? for whatever value of right that is?

[Oliver] 7:33 pm: Great question, Peaches…

[Deena] 7:33 pm: Peaches, the default for readers, readers of all races in our western culture, is that the main character is white and male. If we don’t tell people he or she is not, they assume the main character is–white and male.

[widdershins] 7:33 pm: and straight

[Deena] 7:33 pm: The fact that we don’t start talking about skin color until someone not-white shows up, there’s the problem.

[Deena] 7:33 pm: Yes, sorry, and straight widder.

[ourladyofashes] 7:34 pm: One of the early short stories I wrote had a main character who was a butler. It took most of my readers all the way through the story to realize that the main character is actually a she.

[Deena] 7:34 pm: Actually, in romance novels, the default is actually white femal protag.

[PeachesNCream] 7:34 pm: Teacher said so…basically I needed a character to mentor my heroine so I’d asked her how she would have done it. Guess it came out well.

[Deena] 7:35 pm: Yeah. You know, I didn’t remember Marjorie Liu’s main character’s love interest being described, and until the third or fourth book thought he was black. I was really disappointed to find out he was a kind of non-descript white guy.

[zan] 7:35 pm: One of my childrens stories has two boys hunting for rolly-pollies one White and one Latino they are saying the sme thing in English and Spanish because my son was in a bilingual class and all the books were one or the other and I felt that both worked better for bilingual learners

[Deena] 7:35 pm: Peaches, what race was your heroine? Did you have a white girl being mentored by an older Native American person? Because that’s a bit problematic these days.

[Deena] 7:35 pm: Zan, that’s very cool!

[kris M] 7:36 pm: do you think in these times of economic turmoil – where everyone is facing unemployment, etc. some of the ‘black welfare grandma’ will go away — if people write about contemp stuff???

[Deena] 7:36 pm: Kris, I don’t know. I really hope so. I think, though, that we need to be really mindful of these stereotypes because they linger a long time after they’re dead. Or ought to be dead.

[PeachesNCream] 7:36 pm: Heroine was white yes…mentor was a woman about 10 years old than heroine

[Deena] 7:37 pm: Something to think about then, Peaches.

[Oliver] 7:37 pm: Is it alright to just NOT mention skin/race? I hardly ever mention skin color or race – and let the reader make their own judgement.

[Deena] 7:37 pm: I wrote a short story with legba, coyote, and anansi as kind of oppositional deus ex machinas, and I don’t think I got it.

[PeachesNCream] 7:38 pm: that story was for a high school class…lost to the sands of time I’m afraid LOL

[Deena] 7:38 pm: Oliver, no, it really isn’t. Remember the default switch on most people is white, male (and for your readers probably not hetero).

[zan] 7:38 pm: In one of my shorts I deliberately didn’t say the gender of my hero. I was surprised that most of the guys who read it thought it was a guy and most of the girls a girl

[Deena] 7:38 pm: Zan, the mirror effect, I guess.

[ourladyofashes] 7:38 pm: Question: How does one go about building against these things when creating cultures without going overboard in the opposing directions?

[zan] 7:38 pm: I thought so

[alicats] 7:39 pm: I’ve written three interracial couples – now I’m wondering if I got them right.

[Oliver] 7:39 pm: Okay — is it just me, or is there too much emphasis on race or stereotype?

[Deena] 7:39 pm: Lady. I don’t know. I think to tell a story as honestly as you can. To include characters of other races and cultures who belong (not everyone in space will be white, not everyone in NY is a hipster), and to write from the inside.

[zan] 7:39 pm: Lady I would say research

[Deena] 7:39 pm: Oliver, this is like the backlash against women being kept barefoot and pregnant. Things get strident.

[Deena] 7:40 pm: There is “too much emphasis”

[ourladyofashes] 7:40 pm: How so, Zan? I can’t really research something that doesn’t exist.

[Deena] 7:40 pm: Would you ignore bullying in school? The anti-bullying people are “too strident”… and it’s still being ignored.

[Deena] 7:40 pm: Lady, can you give us a concrete example?

[Deena] 7:41 pm: Still talking about Oliver’s question. There can’t be too much emphasis, too much care taken, until people, everyone, not just the middle-class white person who’s used to being the center of attention–starts saying, “why are you describing their color? Who cares?”

[zan] 7:42 pm: Lady i think we put things in our world building that we like about a race or culture so research and make sure you include some things that you don’t like as well.

[Deena] 7:42 pm: Oh, good idea zan. Helps the writer keep from idealizing a character, race, or culture.

[Oliver] 7:42 pm: Okay, I was just wondering. My stories – yeah, my readers know that 50% of the men are gonna be either gay, bi or f2M. But I always thought it was best to let the reader use their imagination on the race — and even the hair/eye color of the characters — because it really isnt important to the story…. (more)

[FrancesP] 7:43 pm: I don’t think I have the confidence in my knowledge of any particular race besides my own to write it without getting it wrong…don’t you risk a lot more criticism if you get specific and mess it up? just curious

[widdershins] 7:43 pm: When David and Leigh Eddings wrote the Balgariad series, they deliberately created racial not-quite-caricatures or not-quite-stereotypes for the different peoples that inhabited their world. And it worked because they didn’t set one race above the other…. unfortunately the down side was that they all were there to fulfill the white male saviour myth

[Deena] 7:44 pm: Widder, thanks for that example.

[zan] 7:44 pm: Some people will catch your mistakes IE hillermans again. But only if they really know the culture @Frances

[Deena] 7:44 pm: Frances, yes, you do invite criticism if you get it wrong, but think about the criticism Patricia Wrede (my mistake, I originally said Elizabeth Bear) received when readers discovered that she’d wiped out all aboriginal peoples from the Americas in order to give her European settlers a ‘clean slate’ to work with?

[Deena] 7:44 pm: I’d much rather make a mistake than wipe out an entire people.

[Oliver] 7:45 pm: So what do I describe? If it’s important to the story, I describe height, body mass, and or handicap. If I want to imply ethenticity, I give a character an ethic name and let the reader create the vision in his/her head….

[zan] 7:45 pm: Most people don’t even know Navajos have No profanity

[Deena] 7:45 pm: Oliver, an ethnic name may be enough, though you’d want to be sure that it wasn’t a stereotypical ethnic name. One of my writers named a character Lincoln. Not many black boys being named Lincoln these days.

[zan] 7:45 pm: As far as I know they are the only culture that doesn’t

[widdershins] 7:45 pm: @Ollie, but they are still going to create a racial stereotype based on the filters that that name is… er.. filtered through

[Deena] 7:46 pm: I bet there are more than a few Baracks, though.

[Deena] 7:46 pm: Or what Widder said, much more simply.

[barblucas] 7:46 pm: @ Deena. That wasn’t Bear who did the erasing. That was Patricia Wrede IIRC.

[Deena] 7:46 pm: I’m kind of prejudiced against blond(e)s in a story. I don’t know why. I was blonde half my life, until my oldest was born and my hair started turning brown, and then I dyed it a long time, and now it’s… what my mother would call piggeldy-dung colored. (Which I will dye before I go to Context, if I get to Context).

[Deena] 7:47 pm: I had a point… I forgot what it was.

[Deena] 7:47 pm: Thanks, Barb. I said I’d get it wrong!

[barblucas] 7:47 pm: NP.

[Oliver] 7:47 pm: But when using a name – any name, are we not going to create a racial or a sterotype anyway? For instance, a man named Randy did me wrong 27 years ago — Even now, if a main character in a story is named Randy, I can;t read it…., thus, my problem, not the authors…

[Deena] 7:48 pm: Yes, Patricia Wrede, 13th Child, which is a shame, because I bet it’s a cool book.

[Deena] 7:48 pm: Oliver, like my problem with blondes.

[Deena] 7:48 pm: We all have prejudices against particular people. As authors, we have to set those aside and figure out the truth of the character.

[zan] 7:48 pm: We all have our switches

[Deena] 7:48 pm: That’s why I talk about writing from the inside.

[ourladyofashes] 7:48 pm: This feels very much like one of those things you are never going to get ‘right’, therefore you are only trying to mitigate the degree to which we get it wrong.

[Deena] 7:49 pm: Lady, yes.

[Deena] 7:49 pm: Really, honestly, yes, we’re never going to please everyone.

[Deena] 7:49 pm: But I would like to be the least wrong I can be.

[zan] 7:49 pm: and right changes almost daily

[Oliver] 7:49 pm: Though I do have my beefs about the pendulum swinging the other way, and stereo types being black listed — even though they are a very prominent thing in our lives…

[widdershins] 7:49 pm: I think this is why there needs to be physical descriptions of a character… tastefully and artfully done, of course

[Deena] 7:49 pm: Writing from the inside means research, means getting inside the skin of the character. Means thinking about what it means to be who that person is. Go to a busy place, a library, a bus terminal, a train station… and watch people.

[Deena] 7:50 pm: You’ll start to notice things, like that security guards in nice stores are more likely to follow a black person than a white person.

[Deena] 7:50 pm: All of these people have lives, depth, and the stereotypes deny the depth of a person.

[Deena] 7:51 pm: Oliver, when is a stereotype a good thing to include in your writing?

[Oliver] 7:51 pm: Hee! If one acts like a normal straight guy, not an eye bats. If you add a lisp or multiple hand gestures, watch out!

[Deena] 7:51 pm: That’s an honest question. I don’t think it’s ever a good thing.

[Oliver] 7:52 pm: Deena – I’ll answer in a moment…

[Deena] 7:52 pm: Why is the straight guy normal? We describe his actions. His pursed lips, his fisted hands.

[Deena] 7:52 pm: Anyone else have anything to add?

[Deena] 7:53 pm: Feel free to disagree with me!

[widdershins] 7:53 pm: @Deena’s question….

[Oliver] 7:53 pm: This black list of effeminate male characters is hogwash! Anyone who knows anything about the gay culture, KNOWS that the flaming diva dudes are important to the topical graphic overture of gay men…(more)

[barblucas] 7:53 pm: About stereotypes, how do they intersect with archetypes?

[FrancesP] 7:53 pm: Is there a line between stereotype and archetype, do you think you can still use archetypical characters or do you risk crossing into dangerous territory?

[zan] 7:53 pm: I use a “normal” teenage rebellion in the book I am writing now. I think most teenagers even if they don’t take it as far as my character does can relate to that stereotype

[Deena] 7:53 pm: topical graphic overture? I don’t know what that means.

[widdershins] 7:54 pm: I think stereotypes can morph into archytypes and then the line disappears, but it depends on the skill of the writer

[Deena] 7:54 pm: That’s an interesting question, Barb. I’m not sure I know the answer.

[ourladyofashes] 7:54 pm: Stereotypes are mental short hand. They set up expectations, which a writer is then either able to follow up on or disappoint.

[Oliver] 7:54 pm: I get really tired of not being able to write about the guirls – as they are just as important in the gay culture – and serve a purpose, as other do…

[Deena] 7:55 pm: Zan, yeah, which is what Lady said, mental shorthand, like the tropes we expect in romance novels. We know what that language means, all its layers. Maybe they’re okay to use if we unpack the layers. I can only see writing a stereotype intentionally if it’s in the mouth of a prejudiced asshole.

[Deena] 7:55 pm: I’m borrowing zan’s teen rebellion.

[ourladyofashes] 7:56 pm: Stereotypes and cliches are decent starting points, they’re just crap end points.

[Deena] 7:56 pm: If her character slams doors. Screams “get out get out get out!” and then we cut to the adults wringing their hands, that’s not so much writing as blurbing a stereotype.

[Deena] 7:56 pm: I’m betting zan doesn’t do that.

[PTurner] 7:56 pm: What about people in interracial marriages or who are biracial, for example. Do you move them between cultures/races or lean toward one? (Rhetorical question, btw.)

[zan] 7:56 pm: 5 sons 2 daughters all almost past the teen rebellion stage. which one do you want? Deena

[Deena] 7:57 pm: We chafe against restriction, teens have volatile emotions. You can write a character who has those two things in conflict and boom. story.

[Oliver] 7:57 pm: But stereo types do exist – whether we like it or not – and to deny their exsistance is to flog them off so to speak… A TRUE, talented writer will approach a stereotype – and be not afraid to write it – but embelish it, and breath freshness into the character to show the reader all is not what it seems…

[Deena] 7:57 pm: Pam, I think you have to decide who your character is and go from there. The culture of my neighbors across the street is going to be different from the black teen girl in the middle of NY.

[Deena] 7:58 pm: heh, Zan. Yeah, they’re all different.

[Deena] 7:58 pm: Oliver, is any of the giurrls you know in real life a stereotype? Don’t they each have distinguishing characteristics? Heartaches? Triumphs?

[Deena] 7:59 pm: A lot of their experience is true across the board. They’ll be treated like #$%^&* by some people. Laughed at by others. But if you get to the individual, if you write from the inside, they’re not a stereotype.

[Deena] 8:00 pm: This has wandered from race to all kinds of stereotype, and that’s okay with me, but it’s the invisible people we want to include in our work.

[Deena] 8:00 pm: That includes gay men who are effeminate, black women, asian men, handicapped people….

[Deena] 8:00 pm: Who am I leaving out? We’re always leaving someone out. We do that.

[Oliver] 8:01 pm: Deena – totally – and that is why I say, don’t black list the stereo type – take the time, create the character and take that effenimate male and SHOW he really has the balls in the relationship, as not ALL effenimate males are eunichs. BUT again, we must not be afraid to start with the stereotype to show the reader all is not what it seems…

[Deena] 8:01 pm: Oliver, then you’re subverting the stereotype, and that’s what we want.

[alicats] 8:01 pm: Ah, I think I’m getting it. It’s not so much you can’t use the stereotypical aspects, but they can’t be all there is to the character.

[Deena] 8:01 pm: Write real people. That’s all.

[zan] 8:01 pm: Good and bad

[alicats] 8:01 pm: because it never is all there is to any character.

[Deena] 8:02 pm: Yes, ali. Sure, there might be someone in your book who’s on welfare, but make them real. Don’t make them also lazy, promiscuous frauds.

[Deena] 8:02 pm: And include them!

[Deena] 8:02 pm: Include the amazing wonderful array of people in this world. That’s all.

[zan] 8:03 pm: I identify better with any charactor if they are not perfect put in some flaws

[widdershins] 8:03 pm: have to have flaws, otherwise the reader can’t identify with them

[zan] 8:03 pm: And some good in the bad guys too

[Deena] 8:03 pm: yeah. No perfectly good characters, no perfectly bad characters.

[alicats] 8:04 pm: well, that just makes sense doesn’t it? you’re not much of a writer if you write one dimensional characters. Nothing i hate more than a villian with no redeeming quailities.

[widdershins] 8:04 pm: the best horrible good guy I ever read was Thomas Covenant…. #$%^&* he annoyed the hell outta me

[zan] 8:04 pm: I agree I hate Thomas Covenant

[Deena] 8:04 pm: oh lordy, Widder…there were a lot of things about those books that bothered me.

[Deena] 8:05 pm: actually, “anile old woman” made me insane once I discovered that anile means “old womanish”

[Deena] 8:05 pm: He used that phrase a lot.

[ourladyofashes] 8:05 pm: Redundant much?

[widdershins] 8:05 pm: yep… a lot bothered me too

[Deena] 8:06 pm: Ali, you said, “you’re not much of a writer if you write one dimensional characters”. But we do that all the time. The people the protag brushes up against in the subway, the red-shirt in the hall… but what we want to do is be sure that those one dimensional supporting cast members aren’t all of some other race, or mostly of some other race, or that they’re the only representatives of some other race.

[Deena] 8:06 pm: Even with Mace Windu as a strong character; Jar Jar Binks made a lot of people froth at the mouth.

[Deena] 8:07 pm: You can’t be lazy with your other characters just because you get one right.

[widdershins] 8:07 pm: Jar jar was the Fool

[FrancesP] 8:07 pm: Definately, if you want to make an alien race the victim of racism, don’t borrow from an existing race….

[widdershins] 8:07 pm: or at least he tried to be

[FrancesP] 8:08 pm: he was a poorly done archetype that borrowed from a stereotype…mistake.

[Deena] 8:08 pm: I didn’t find Jar Jar offensive, but he wasn’t representing me, right? Yes, exactly right, Frances.

[Deena] 8:08 pm: Write from the inside!

[FrancesP] 8:08 pm: I love archetypes, but they have to be done gently, I think.
[Deena] 8:10 pm: Final point. Your friends of other races aren’t your teaching tool. One of the things I see in the blogosphere complained about a lot is that people of non-white races are constantly being “used” rather than befriended. They’re fodder for the mill. Write the best you can, research like crazy, write it again, look at it from every angle possible, and then ask someone to read it, or two someones, or ten someones, if you know that many people, who can point out to you where you got it wrong.

[Deena] 8:10 pm: You’ll probably still get it wrong sometimes. I’m sure I will. Just…do better next time.

[kris M] 8:10 pm: @Deena — you missed mentally ill — I’m remembering from the other day’s seminar – not bad guy is because he’s crazy!!!

[Deena] 8:10 pm: Yes! Kris, that’s definitely a bad, bad writing trick that needs to go away.

[zan] 8:10 pm: Thanks all I really enjoyed this

[Deena] 8:11 pm: Thanks, everyone, for backing me up in my not-quite-organized diatribe, here.

[Deena] 8:11 pm: Be sure to comment on the transcript if you think of something else to think about. I’ll add a link to the DP resource page about writing other races and cultures.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:01 pm: I think this is going swimmingly thus far, don’t you?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:01 pm: Thanks for having me.

[Babs M] 9:01 pm: Everyone certainly is happy to be here.

[Babs M] 9:02 pm: Even the evil mommies in the crowd.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:02 pm: What? Joan Crawford is here?

[basletum] 9:02 pm: lol!

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:02 pm: Everyone say it with me…No wire hangers!

[Babs M] 9:02 pm: Hahaha….Could you tell us a little about yourself? I’m sure most of us know you write horror stories…what else should we know?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:03 pm: I’ve written quite a bit of mystery, science fiction, suspense, and — believe it or bot — some romance over the course of my career.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:04 pm: Yes, there will be typos tonight.

[Babs M] 9:04 pm: I sprayed, darn it!

[Babs M] 9:04 pm: And I see you teach with Pennwriter Tim Esaias at Seton Hill?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:04 pm: I had a lot of trouble learning how to read in my early years, which is why I tend to read more slowly than the average reader.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:05 pm: Yes, indeed. I’ve been with SH for 6 years, Tim has been there, I believe, nearly 10.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:06 pm: In fact, today was the day we had to turn in term grades.

[Babs M] 9:06 pm: What would you say is one of the most common mistakes of beginning writers?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:08 pm: There are several of them, but the one I see most often is … homogenized. They tend to write about what’s hot at the moment rather than bring their own personal vision to the page.

[Babs M] 9:09 pm: How does that particularly apply to horror writing? You mean, everyone doesn’t have to write about vampires at the same time?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:11 pm: No … these days it’s zombies. Lots and lots and lots of zombies. Some with the shredded flesh of Jane Austen and Mark Twain (among others) in their teeth.

[RonHorsley] 9:11 pm: I don’t know about Gary, but from my viewpoint, all writing including horror has its ‘trends,’ and a lot of new authors gravitate towards them. Probably moreso in genres like horror where new authors want to ‘hit it big’ as quickly as possible so they write what’s going to probably sell best at the moment.

[Babs M] 9:11 pm: What does a writer of zombies have to do to stand out in such a crowd?

[Muffie79] 9:12 pm: Sexy zombies?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:12 pm: Try telling their stories from a new, original angle.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:13 pm: Example: when I was asked to write a zombie story for a chapbook publisher, I started off with some typical zombie setups — only everything was being told through the POV of a dj trapped in his radio booth. And from there, it evolved into something completely different from a traditional zombie story. I won my third Stoker award for that piece.

[cesarcarlos] 9:14 pm: “We now Pause…” great story

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:16 pm: I want to clarify my point about homogenized horror a bit. The biggest problem comes when a new writer sits down and say to him- or herself, “I’m going to write a horror story.”

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:17 pm: Because whether they know it or not, by specifying the type of story it has to be, they will unconsciously begin employing traditional horror tropes that very probably have no business being in the story. They hobble the piece before it’s even begun. That’s why I always tell my students, “Forget genre,” when they’re beginning a new piece. Let the story go to where it needs to go, thematically and organically; don’t graft elements onto the narrative that have no business being there.

[Babs M] 9:20 pm: That’s a great suggestion.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:21 pm: Nothing original can be created in a vacuum, and when a writer sets out to write a specific type of story, he or she creates their own vacuum. It’s defeating the point of trying to establish not only an original narrative, but a distinct narrative voice, as well.

[Babs M] 9:21 pm: Can you speculate about what upcoming trends might be beyond zombies? It seems like so much of what is going on in the real world is pretty scary these days.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:24 pm: Yes, what’s going on in the world is scary, but there’s always something scary going on.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:25 pm: I would like to see horror become better balanced by finding a way to make the terrors within as petrifying as those without.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:26 pm: For instance; Tim Lebbon just released a brilliant novella entitled The Thief of Broken Toys that’s one of the most powerful studies of individual grief I have ever read. He makes the world outside the narrator as gut-wrenching and oppressive as the battle with his grief inside. Horror needs to start facing more of the human darkness within; grief, anger, hopelessness, violent thoughts, etc. — and I mean grapple with these things, not toss them out for window-dressing.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:28 pm: That said, there could always be a resurgence of Evil Clowns.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:29 pm: Or possessed wombats.

[Babs M] 9:29 pm: What then should a writer do who wants to write something scary? Not necessarily genre horror, but wants to explore something and make it as terrifying to the reader as it is to him or her? Where’s a good place to begin?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:30 pm: Within themselves — seriously. You cannot consciously scare a reader if the subject you’re dealing with doesn’t scare or disturb you. If you have a character who is, say, contemplating the murder of a sex offender who’s just moved into the neighborhood, you have to find that element of reckless hatred and judgmentalism in yourself that you’ve felt toward someone or something in the past, dredge it up, and direct it toward the character and thus the goal of the story. The emotions have to be authentic, you cannot disturb a reader through affectation.

If you can honestly and directly convey your fear of something on the page, the reader will experience that fear along with your character.

[basletum] 9:31 pm: Evil Clowns rock!

[basletum] 9:31 pm: (sorry)

[basletum] 9:35 pm: Evil clowns with tourettes rock too.

[basletum] 9:35 pm: (couldn’t help myself)

[cinriter] 9:35 pm: Personally, I want Braunbeck’s Possessed Wombats.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:36 pm: I suddenly have the hiccups. This has nothing to do with the discussion, but I felt compelled to share.

LucySnyder] 9:36 pm: (Gary does sound rather like a possessed wombat right now!)

[Muffie79] 9:37 pm: Gary, eat a spoonful of sugar.

[Nicole Cushing] 9:37 pm: I want to know if Gary has any advice to assist a writer keep moored to the world outside of fiction…

[Nicole Cushing] 9:37 pm: That is… I find that there’s almost a delirium that comes with fiction-writing and with Gary’s work (in particular, the Cedar Hill stories), there’s a tremendous amount of investment in this “un-real” world…

[Nicole Cushing] 9:38 pm: how does a writer balance that investment, along with investment in stuff like…oh…doing the laundry? How do you “un-moor” yourself?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:38 pm: I go through the same thing whenever I’m working on something — that delirium you speak of. Everything you do in your daily life not only keeps you grounded, but it allows the good old subconscience to work out story problems that you may being having trouble with. There is a great quote from William Goldman that I long ago adopted as my personal mantra.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:40 pm: “Life is material; you just have to live long enough to figure out how to use it.”

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:41 pm: This keeps me solidly grounded with one foot in the real world, and one in the un-real. Does that help you at all?

[Nicole Cushing] 9:41 pm: yes, thanks!

[cesarcarlos] 9:41 pm: Hi Gary, you mentioned Tim Lebbon’s novella as a great example, are there any other contemporary novellas you believe are particularly good at portraying fear, dread, etc.?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:42 pm: Off the top of my head: Ray Garton’s “Dr. Krusadian’s Method” and “Monsters”; Dan Simmons’s “Iverson’s Pits”; Stephen King’s “The Things They Left Behind” (a brilliant example of merging the fears within with the fears without); Sarah Pinborough’s “The Language of Dying.” These are all first-rate examples.

[Muffie79] 9:44 pm: How do you deal with the darkness dredged up by bringing up (lots of ups here) all that inner ugliness?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:45 pm: In all seriousness, sometimes I can’t deal with it. But most of the time, when it’s all up here on the surface and I’m trembling or crying or raging or whatever, all I have to do is look down at my feet and I’ll see one of our cats lying there, keeping me company, or I’ll hear Lucy typing in her office, or the sound of her lovely voice as she speaks with someone on the phone.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:47 pm: and I remember how blessed I am to have such a good life, one that allows me to do the thing I am best at, and love dearly.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:48 pm: There’s also the meth lab I’m building, if all else fails…

Babs M] 9:48 pm: LOL…um no illegal stuff here, folks….

[Muffie79] 9:48 pm: Is there a cathartic effect?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:49 pm: Yes, it’s cathartic. A lot of writers think that the idea of catharsis or self-exorcism through their work is pretentious or a lot of horseshit, I am not one of them. Horror, of all forms of storytelling, is by its core nature a cathartic genre — the reader ends the book or story feeling drained, as if they’ve faced something terrible and come out into the light all the stronger. for it. It’s a little hard to achieve that effect if the writer him- or herself doesn’t experience some personal catharsis during the writing of the piece.

[basletum] 9:50 pm: Do you feel that psychological horror will make a comeback after people get jaded by the gratuity of slasher flicks, etc.?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:52 pm: That is my fervent hope. A lot of what is being vomited onto the screens these days has been called “Torture Porn” (an apt description) because it follows the structure of a porno film, only instead of enduring the dialogue scenes so you can get to the something-something, you endure them so you can get to the endless, gratuitous torture.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:54 pm: They’re dehumanizing, and, yes, I hope that more thoughtful, psychological horror will make its way to the forefront.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:54 pm: Though I have to confess that I did like the first 2 SAW films quite a lot; they justified the ugliness of their torture scenes and had the underlying vindictive morality of the old fairy tales.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:55 pm: After the second one, though, they degenerated into pointless bloodbaths.

[tina_writes_thecleanwhitepage] 9:56 pm: Gary, do you have any advice about seeking publication of the horror novel?

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:57 pm: Put together a proposal package–the first 3 chapters (or 50 pages, whichever comes first) along with a synopsis of the rest of the story (no longer than 1-and-a-half pages, single-spaced) and send it out to as many agents and publishers as you’d like.

[GaryBraunbeck] 9:58 pm: If you send out 10 proposal packages, odds are pretty good that at least one agent or publisher is going to want to see the rest. Don’t limit yourself to to just the big house, though; also look for first-rate small press publishers, such as PS Publishing, Subterranean, Apex, etc.

[tina_writes_thecleanwhitepage] 9:59 pm: Did you start by getting an agent?

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:00 pm: Nope. Sold my first 6 books on my own. That got some agents’ attention.

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:01 pm: I will add, however, that in the marketplace today, it’s best if you have an agent.

[tina_writes_thecleanwhitepage] 10:01 pm: Thanks Gary. I’ll keep plugging.

[cesarcarlos] 10:01 pm: I read once that novellas were “the best format for horror”. Do you agree with this or do you consider format irrelevant?

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:02 pm: I think the novella length is the perfect length for fiction. It allows you the room to explore more deeply characters and their relationships, as well as the theme and a sub-plot or two, without the temptation of getting windy and losing focus, as many are wont to do when writing a novel. For me, the novella is the perfect length.

[cesarcarlos] 10:03 pm: Thanks, Gary.

[basletum] 10:03 pm: Regarding publishers and agents whose guidelines say “no simultaneous submissions”, is the proposal package considered a “submission” or is only the full manuscript a submission?

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:04 pm: The proposal package counts as a submission — however, a query letter doesn’t count as such — you can fire off as many of them as you’d like.

[basletum] 10:04 pm: Cool! Thanks!

[Babs M] 10:04 pm: Since you live right there…are you going to be at ContextCon any time in the near future?

[spot_writes] 10:05 pm: Isn’t Lucy teaching a workshop at ContextCon?

[basletum] 10:05 pm: Yep

[LucySnyder] 10:05 pm: Yes, on Urban Fantasy

[spot_writes] 10:06 pm: (sorry I got excited!! I’m going!)

basletum] 10:06 pm: Toldya’

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:06 pm: Definitely. This coming Context, that begins on August 27th, will also mark Lucy’s and my 6th wedding anniversary — we met at Context

[LucySnyder] 10:06 pm: And Gary is teaching an advanced short story workshop

[Muffie79] 10:06 pm: We should have cake.

[LucySnyder] 10:06 pm: Workshop link.

[spot_writes] 10:06 pm: *swoons*

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:06 pm: It’s going to be a lot of fun.

[LucySnyder] 10:06 pm: We definitely should have cake!

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:06 pm: Would anyone mind if I mentioned some upcoming publications?

[basletum] 10:07 pm: go for it!

[Babs M] 10:07 pm: please do

[Deena] 10:07 pm: Please do!

[Deena] 10:07 pm: (If I get to come, I will bring a cake. I’ve discovered an incredible recipe for home made icing.)

[LucySnyder] 10:07 pm: Deena, you must come!

[Deena] 10:07 pm: I really, really want to.

[Muffie79] 10:07 pm: Just bring the icing.

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:07 pm: Apex Books will be releasing a non-fiction book (part memoir, part movie reviews, part writing tips) entitled To Each Their Darkness in October

[LucySnyder] 10:08 pm: To Each Their Darkness pre-order link.

[spot_writes] 10:08 pm: Lucy, Gary, Deena, Cake. Could it get better??

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:09 pm: and December will see the release (also from Apex) of the 6th Cedar Hill novel, A Cracked and Broken Path, which will close out this branch of the cycle. And it only took 24 years.

[basletum] 10:09 pm: wow!

[Muffie79] 10:09 pm: Folks, preorder To Each Their Darkness. It rocks.

[LucySnyder] 10:09 pm: I should mention that the first 100 preorders of To Each Their Darkness gets a free signed hardcover limited edition book

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:09 pm: Early 2011 will see the 3rd Cedar Hill collection from Earthling, as well as the novella “Clipper Girls” from the gang at Tasmaniac Publications.

[cesarcarlos] 10:10 pm: Congrats on the anniversary and on the upcoming pubs! My question: I know some foreign writers are quite popular in the US (in particular many British authors). From your perspective what do you think the odds are for a foreigner (unpublished) to publish in the US?

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:11 pm: If said writer has been published in his or her own country, and they find a good agent to represent the foreign rights, I’d say the odds will be in his or her favor. It may take some time, but I think their chances are solid.

cesarcarlos] 10:12 pm: Thanks Gary, cant wait for Cedar Hill Vol. 3!!

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:13 pm: CH #3 will be titled The Carnival Within, btw.

[Babs M] 10:12 pm: What a lot of information to assimilate! Thank you, Gary, for taking the time to share with us. Even those of us who don’t write horror, necessarily have plenty to take away. Good luck with your new publications!

[Deena] 10:13 pm: Thanks, Gary, this was great. Lucy, thanks for coming too

[LucySnyder] 10:13 pm: Sure, thanks for having us!

[spot_writes] 10:13 pm: Thank you both! It was very interesting.

cinriter] 10:14 pm: Thanks, both! And congrats on YOUR Stoker, Lucy!

[Nicole Cushing] 10:14 pm: g’night

[LucySnyder] 10:14 pm: Thanks, Lisa!

[basletum] 10:14 pm: Gnight! See you two at Marcon!

[cesarcarlos] 10:14 pm: Bye!

[Muffie79] 10:14 pm: Sweet dreams, everybody!

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:14 pm: My thanks to all of you. I had a blast, and hope that all of you found this as interesting and fun as I did. Goodnight!

[tina_writes_thecleanwhitepage] 10:14 pm: Thank you Gary!

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:14 pm: Thanks for logging in all the way from Ireland, Tina!

[tina_writes_thecleanwhitepage] 10:15 pm: My pleasure Gary!

[spot_writes] 10:15 pm: Goodnight everyone.

[GaryBraunbeck] 10:15 pm: I have to go tend to the wombats and evil clowns now…

[basletum] 10:15 pm: Evil clowns with tourettes.

[tina_writes_thecleanwhitepage] 10:15 pm: Nothing scarier than a clown after midnight